Moderator Abuse...again

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Durf
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Re: Moderator Abuse...again

Post by Durf »

Responses to page 8:
(!! <-- responses to page 7 on the previous page <-- !!)


@Word:
Word wrote:The moderators don't spam the forums with their crap and don't harass people with PMs, and they don't threaten to hack them/risk our passwords as they want.
This is so wrong. The moderators will post off topic posts to start a rumor about a user as a means of avoiding a discussion about their abuse. Frankly, that should qualify as spam. Also, I never harassed anyone with PMs. I suggest you stop spreading rumors yourself since it won't end well. Lastly, no threat was made, and any talk of "hacking" is irrevent even if a threat was made. Certainly no risk to your passwords was implied by what I said - the risk already exists. It doesn't exist because of me, and it was made publicly aware by Z-Man. So HE is the person that deliberately risked your passwords. That's not a threat, it's already done.
Word wrote:Lucifer edited a post that needed to be moderated and predicted that Durf would react in a dumb way, which Durf did, thereby reinforcing what was said about him.
I never claimed that it didn't need to be moderated (frankly I didn't see the original post, why would I claim that?). You say I reacted in a dumb way as if it would have been to the edit (action) and not the edit reason. I made myself clear in this thread, and I don't appreciate your perpetuating your ignorance. The recurring problem is Lucifer's abuse of his status, plain and simple. There was no reason for the edit mentioned, all that was left was abuse. Regardless if the post needed to be moderated or not, what Lucifer did (and his habit of doing so) is the topic of discussion; the recurring problem. You're the only person reacting in a dumb way because of this; how can you persistently have the wrong idea unless you're trying to be ignorant? Besides, let's (for the sake of argument) take all that back as assume you're right that I reacted in a dumb way...that does NOT reinforce the things said about me that are unrelated to the actual edit itself. You can't use that to validate your assumptions; both because you're wrong in the first place, and because you wouldn't be right even with correct information. You can't validate something unrelated like that.
Word wrote: call people names all the time and accuse people of ridiculous stuff that only makes sense in the bubble around his head
Actually it exists in the real world (away from your computer). When I call you something, it's because you're being that. If you have a problem with the vulgarity of my words, you should try to be more respectful, and I will use better language for you personally. Since you make no effort towards civility, why should I? The fact of the matter is that you started disrespecting when you think something like an ordinary word is an insult. The fact remains that everything I've ever said about anyone can be proven with facts. It has nothing to do with a "bubble" around anyone's head. It has to do with reality. You're the one who's too stubborn to accept reality. But taking it out on me isn't going to change it for you.
Word wrote:Besides, how does the fact that one of these players and I happen to like one another diminish a single argument against whatever Durf claims? But we already had this, you're just suspecting a conspiracy like Durf does.
It (in itself) doesn't diminish your arguments; not at all. Though you're a sheep when you only listen to your friend - which DOES diminish EVERY argument you make because you make your motivation known to everyone.
Conspiracy? Hacking? Hero?! These words were brought up by other people, not me. It's not my problem what imaginations people have, or if they settle for a wrong answer.. But like ConVicT said, "now that you mention it..", unreasonable moderators abusing users, sheep blindly supporting in numbers, no facts discussed, and no chance for an actual discussion on the matter before everyone wants to take action against me....hmmm...it's still a conspiracy even if not all of the participants are AWARE of it. Frankly, it could only be Z-Man with his sheep who truly knows what's going on, because afaik he hasn't shared the entire history with you guys. He "cherry picked" for a reason.





@ConVicT: You noticed it too eh? They are getting pathetic to having to resort to such measures... Just goes to show that there is no basis in reality there; they only hope that we'll accept what they say if it sounds like it's right. >_>
Plus, it's more than just a couple things at this point. It's a long list of things that I could easily go over their heads with. They have no idea just how deep a grave they dug themselves.

The gun analogy:
I'd say that the first unjust ban was like a punch to the face or a shot in my direction (a form of assault - since there was no dispute, no apology, just abuse).
So I'd say that I basically told Z-Man not to do that again or I will do what is necessary to stop it (which is more about unbanning myself than to ban/demote Z-man) which can be like a shot in his direction (a form of assault in itself, but in context not one you can take to court).
Your summary was pretty good, though I think there's probably a better analogy out there.
If hacking = breaking & entering, then making use of an exploit = going in an open window / unlocked door. Which is more specific to what I actually said, and not some imaginary "threat" (bad action like going after passwords).





@dinobro:
Strangely convenient all "sheep" are against durf, aye?
Actually, yes. That is specifically why they are sheep, stupid. Anyone who just buys into what Z-Man says without reading what I have to say about the same thing is nothing but his sheep. If they have their own mind, then they should at least be curious and try to see what I have to say; especially since I'm saying that you all have it wrong and I can show you how.
Look, in this case Durf would even make some sense if not for the fact that his whole premise is flawed.
Very profound. Much credibility. (<--sarcasm) Seriously did you even try with that sentence or did you just want to say "Durf is wrong". That sentence is meaningless since you don't even support it; it's just your opinion (and you've given us a pretty good idea over the past few months just what that is worth).
He thinks there is some conspiracy of mods against him....
I actually don't. Nor would I care even if there was a conspiracy - it wouldn't make what I say about the moderators incorrect. Even then, what do you gain by spreading the rumor that I think there's a conspiracy? Who cares about that? If I thought there was a conspiracy and there wasn't, then I will soon find out either way and learn differently...like honestly wtf. Why would I waste my time with such nonsensical thinking.
Then you create another masterpiece (sarcasm) with this:
therefore everything he says is just incredibly stupid and his retaliation promise is Solid ground to permaban as this person is unable to think rationally.
Besides your entire reasoning for this sentence being incorrect (lol), even if it was correct, it doesn't support the claim that I'm just incredibly stupid and it has nothing to do with my "retaliation promise". Jumping to conclusions such as suggesting to permaban without hearing both sides only serves to show your own inability to think rationally.

Is this supposed to be a form of comedy? When you contradict yourself and become the biggest hypocrite you can be? Because, this isn't funny; but ignorance to this extent (I thought) didn't occur naturally. In short, are you serious right now?

And this:
Somehow, I don't see you mentioning Amaso, a known troll whose only purpose on this forum is troll even more and fuel the drama. Guess what? He supports Durf as mentioned in this thread. Coincidence?
Supporting me is not synonymous with fueling drama - unless the moderators are purposely pressuring people to agree with them. I've already mentioned, and proven, how Z-Man causes drama in the public simply as a means of getting people pissed off at me (like as if it was my fault to begin with). You could say it's quite the curious coincidence that Z-Man can never actually finish any topic he starts. In the end, all he can do is bitch about things.

This needs to be said to Z-Man, Word, and yourself: "You took your side and mindlessly throw irrelevant arguments just to support your weak points. If you want to call anyone a sheep, I would advise to start from yourself."

If you're going to get involved, the least you could do is put in some effort - that was just pitiful.





@Overrated: What a horrific thing to say... Imagine if a rumor was started about you and no one cared to listen to the truth. They could just poll their opinions not based in facts and get you punished for something you didn't do. What a terrible suggestion. You should never give possibility of doing the wrong thing like that. No amount of opinions and hurt feelings will change what is fact.
I think the fact this is still dragging on is ridiculous.
Here's a basic run-down of the pattern:
1) the CAUSE (either mod abuse or some other problem being discussed, brought up directly to mods).
2) Z-Man engaging in a bit of discussion but eventually will avoid it either by locking the topic, outright refusing and even disallowing me to discuss it further, changing the topic and/or bringing up irrelevant topics so as to create a large convoluted mess of topics to discuss.
3) Z-Man "forgets" the old topics and remains stubborn on what he wants said (note, "what he wants said", he's not open to discussion, he just wants to say and enforce his way)
Trust me, I too think it's ridiculous. And the thing is nothing would have had to have been brought up either if the moderators could just stop abusing. I was actually fully prepared to wait for Tank Program to deal with all the disputes...but Lucifer decided to troll, and Z-Man decided to harass...what do you expect of me? Just to ignore its constant presence? It's a targeted attack (not a conspiracy, but cyber bullying).
Whether or not they cooperate, I will make it stop.
Then in the future further discussion can warrant bans and/or locked topics. I think it's been a waste of time overall but that's just me.
No real (worthwhile) discussions have been taking place to begin with! Remember how adamant Z-Man was on getting that PM history posted to disprove my "slanderous" claims?? Isn't it obvious to you by now that he was operating under a false pretence just to try to expose that one PM as a threat..? Where's his discussion regarding the "slanderous" claims?! Z-Man hasn't been discussing to begin with. The problem is that there are abusive moderators; the bigger problem is that you cannot reason with them (not at all). By no means should I deserve a ban because of Z-Man's inability to justify his own (or Lucifer's) actions...wtf? Do you want them to be able to mistreat users unfairly?





@/dev/null: +1 lmao punny exit ;P
Though people should try to care more - some users have been far too intolerant and it has gotten abusive as a result.
Plus, it's Tank's website, and his project - I will be sure to ask him personally how he wants it run, because I can't get a straight answer out of anyone here.
Besides that, this IS a democracy in the sense that this website's hosting provider is still bound by laws of the area it's hosted in. And Tank Program become fully liable when he signed up for the hosting service. Cyber bullying is illegal; Z-Man and Lucifer aren't liable so they obviously wouldn't care, by Tank definitely should.
<edit: pretty lucky that your post was the last on the page - made the joke(pun?...funny bit) better>


....will respond to page 9 later

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Re: Moderator Abuse...again

Post by Durf »

Responses to page 9:




Boolean is a variable that can either be true (1) or false (0).
In PHP, true == 1 == "1"; a relatively loose comparison. Not every language compares the same like that (though most still do true==1)
But won't match an exact comparison (===) because a boolean is not an integer, nor is it a string.



You could drown a fish in heavy water maybe...





K, well that was short.
Hopefully people can stop propagating nonsense and stay on topic?
This thread is for moderator abuse, and solving the recurring problem of consistent mistreatment.

What is the status of Lucifer deciding to troll me with his edit? Avoided - not a single moderator can take responsibility for their own actions.
What Z-Man has been doing recently (pushing this rumor) is a form of harassment/abuse.
Not to mention that he posted PMs I was a part of without explicit consent, proving himself to be a hypocrite, but also abusing his status in yet another way.
And Z-Man is fully aware of what he did wrong, but tries to justify it by saying the community NEEDED to see it...why exactly? If it was a ban-worthy offense, I would have been banned. I'm not banned because it's not and it would just be more abuse if I was. Getting the community to agree with him isn't going to suddenly give reason to ban me, and Z-Man shouldn't have had to post anything to go "is this ban-worthy?". That only proves his incompetence further.
There's plenty of evidence against Z-Man, for every claim I've made...yet none / only incomplete (bias) for Z-Man's claims.
Just further sign that he will even abuse to try to prove he's not abusive. >_>



!!!!
Please stay on topic.
I'm willing to discuss ANY topic, but it should be on topic / in it's own thread.
Don't purposely post in this thread some off topic garbage so as to dilute the original purpose of this thread.
By reading this, you accept the responsibility of what you (should) post afterwards.
If it's off topic, I will only be pointing to this paragraph in my response to you.
Perhaps I won't even respond to you anymore because I've said enough times that I'm willing to discuss it, but I'm not about to go off topic - YOU start a new thread if you want to talk about that so bad. It's not that hard.
Stay on topic please.
!!!!

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Re: Moderator Abuse...again

Post by Monkey »

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Re: Moderator Abuse...again

Post by Lucifer »

Look Durf, you wanted a trial by public opinion. You continually threatened Z-man in the PMs with that.

You got it. It's totally happened.

You lost.

I don't know what you want from me anymore. You say I'm a tyrant, yet I have 4 kids that feel free to be whoever they are with me. That count includes kids who are bi, gay, and not easy to nail down a gender. And they're all free to be who they are with me.

You say I'm a tyrant, but I have censored exactly 0 of your posts.

What else have I done that a tyrant does? Have I repeatedly banned you, or have I let you speak out against me? Have I forbid you to behave in ways that would make me look bad, or have I let you do whatever you felt was right?

In exactly what way am I a tyrant?

It's true that I can be forceful, that I will move against users when I feel it is the right thing to do.

Is that all it takes to be a tyrant?

Because if that's all it takes, you're a tyrant, too.

However, you are blatantly abusive. When you blame the person you attack for your attacks, you are abusive.
Durf wrote: If you have a problem with the vulgarity of my words, you should try to be more respectful, and I will use better language for you personally.
There's more, but i couldn't stomach reading through your posts.

On the gun analogy:

You all leave out one important detail. These forums don't belong to Durf.. It's like you went into a random bar, got questioned about how you behaved, pointed out your loaded gun, got the cops called on you, and you were escorted off the premises.

The only way your arguments hold water is if you own the bar.

As for your repeated arguments that nobody's proven you wrong and nobody's responded to you:

Z-man and I have both responded to everything. We've clearly stated our separate positions (which happen to overlap in some ways). You simply refuse to read that.

We don't like repeating ourselves, so we haven't. It is up to you to get it the first time, or re-read it. You have said nothing in the last 3 months that we haven't already answered.


You've earned a ban, and I fully support banning you forever. I have expressed this to my compadres. It's now up to them what to do, amongts themselves. They already have my vote.
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Re: Moderator Abuse...again

Post by Lucifer »

And, just so we're clear about this:

Tank Program is prepared to ban you, if that's what he feels is right. Since I'm the only one of the Evil Triumvirate who lives in the US, and you (Durf) do as well, Tank is prepared to send me any/all logs required.

If you hack the forums, I will escalate to the FBI.

The last time this question came up, I did exactly that, and got no response. However, Codehunter (a user here) disappeared right after that, and there were news reports about cells of Anonymous being caught. I can't say we had something to do with that, but there is a correlation.

Do YOU want to be a correlation?
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Re: Moderator Abuse...again

Post by Tank Program »

Durf, I know you may not consider your statements to be threatening, but I kind of do. I was hoping they were a misunderstanding, but I can't risk that they aren't.

To be clear to everyone, any access to any part of these forums must be authorized. Authorized means that you have at the very least implicit approval from myself to do so. For anyone not specifically banned (in which case they are not authorized), this takes the form of guest access. For a registered user, you can additional access according to your user permissions; for most users this takes the form of being able to submit content (posts, attachments) to the forums. For moderators, their authorization includes additionally access to moderation tools for banning, editing posts, etc.. Only one user has access to the administration tools, e.g. editing user names, creating new forums, or any other access directly to the PHP files or MySQL database. This is myself. No other user has this authorization, and any attempts to access (or otherwise sucessfully access even if not "caught") the administration tools (or any tools or spaces on this site that a user is not authorized to access) counts as unauthorized access and will be followed up on. This is non-negotiable. Any access through software exploits while technically "authorized" in the sense that the software let you do it, is hacking.

Durf, any further statements on your part which I feel risk the safety of the forums through hacking will result in a permanent ban. This is your only warning in this regard.

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Re: Moderator Abuse...again

Post by |CPU| »

This is all so terribly exciting
: ( ) { : | : & } ; :

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Re: Moderator Abuse...again

Post by Tank Program »

From reading what I have (which isn't everything) I take these to be the relevant issues I need to sort out:
  • Durf's original ban
  • Explicit forum rules
  • Moderator abuse by Lucifer
  • Moderator abuse by Z-man
  • Communicating with Durf
I will take one try at sorting this out based on how I see the situation. This is the only time I will do so. I will try to be impartial, but I admit that will be difficult. Everyone involved (Durf, Lucifer, Z-man) gets one brief reply for a counter argument if they have any complaints. I've previously had plenty of PMs and other communication from everyone involved. I'm more or less going to ignore everyone else's comments at this point because this really needs to come to an end. After I confirm my final decision, I will take any relevant actions, and then I hope everyone will be able to move onto more constructive things.

So, Durf's original ban. Part of this is rehashing old territory, but I'm setting a final record. It is hard to determine if the the 24 hour ban was given with or without warning, but it was very fast, and there was no explicit warning procedure in place. I apologize for the lack of warning. However, I think that the stuff under discussion was creepy. Proving who you are online is weird territory. While I would not have given a ban for it as I am probably too relaxed, I will stand behind Lucifer's decision to do so. He did not handle issuing that ban very well though. The spamming going on at the time was probably the work of Swag, and I do not think Durf was behind it. Somehow, a 7 day ban was issued to Durf. I was contacted by e-mail (and possibly IRC) about this and that ban was lifted. My apologies for this as well.

One of the reasons the ban process did not go very smoothly here is because of a lack of explicit forum rules. This is why I will not debate the justness of the ban here. Without a clear context in which to judge it, there cannot be a clear outcome. Similarly, the clear lack of a moderation framework of some sort meant the ban, and subsequent events, were poorly handled. I am writing new forum rules and will post them in a few weeks. I hope that they will help to clarify allowable (and bannable) behaivour for those users who need that guidance. They will also set out a specific warning, ban, and appeal procedure. I want this to help {users and users} and {users and moderators} interact in the future, but I suspect not all will be satisfied and moderator judgement to still play an important role. Expect the new rules to make clear that the forums are not a democracy and that while constructive criticism is welcomed, there will not be another incident like this. All judgments will be final after appeal. Moderation will probably become more aggressive. I am sorry, but it clearly has to be that way now.

Which brings us to the alleged moderator abuse by Lucifer. Lucifer is a bit of a crazy person in some regards and great in others. I think that most of Durf's criticism of him stems from inconsistent behaivour and a lack of framework for him to act in. The rest is due, to use common venacular, essentially being trolled. Which I admit isn't a great thing for a moderator to do. Lucifer is agressive and while sometimes that helps get situations resolved, other times it backfires. Repeated agressive behaivour can be considered abusive, and this agression has at times spilled into his moderation. While most users do not publicly express (and no one has expressed privately to me) an issue with this, Durf has. And to be honest I find it difficult to justify Lucifer's responses in some situations. For now Lucifer is suspended as a moderator. My apologies to anyone who has felt unfairly treated in the past.

On the other hand there's alleged moderator abuse by Z-man. Z-man I think is one of the most sane people on the forums. Typically that has balanced well with Lucifer. Z-man says what he means and does what he says, but his patience is not limitless. Durf's initial major complaint, I think, was that Z-man never finished dispute resolution over his initial ban, which, I think, happened because Z-man lost patience. No resolution of course, can be annoying, so Durf continued to persue it (which is why we're here) and in an attempt to sort things out we had the PM history reveal. I allowed this because I thought it would help to clear the air, to promote discussion and understanding. I was wrong, my apologies again. While, Z-man and Durf's interactions haven't really produced any sort of useful dialogue, I fail to see how Z-man has been abusing his moderator privileges.

This isn't really an issue per-se, and is neither here no there, but I have some comments on communicating with Durf. Durf, you write long posts that take a long time to read, but I don't have anything against this. Personally I hate the qoute-response-quote-response format, but I can understand why people use it, especially when replying to multiple response in one go. I think Durf, that you would benefit from trying to synthesize responses to multiple people into single coherent essays that address similar issues together, but not doing so is your choice again. Replying point-by-point is your perogative but you tend to drown yourself out when you do it. This last issue is a bit harder to deal with for all involved, but oh well. Durf, I think that you are very stubborn. Can't be helped, but you are very difficult to compromise with as a result.

After Lucifer, Z-man, and Durf have posted I will respond again.

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Re: Moderator Abuse...again

Post by Word »

Well, even if you discouraged us from replying... :P that post was very diplomatic, I'd just like to say that I think Lucifer should remain a moderator even if the ban was a mistake - firstly, as can be seen in that thread, he wasn't the only one who was irritated by the posts. While a moderator is rightly expected to preserve a friendly climate, here it seems like a line was crossed in a way that needed to be addressed; and secondly, I don't want robot moderators to decide who can talk and who can't - you guys are humans, damnit.

As he himself already said, Lucifer didn't simpy tell Durf to shut up after Durf was unbanned again, and yet Durf made himself a victim of an overreacting tyrant and apparently did everything possible to cry him down or silence him, including that bit about "unauthorized access" and asking the moderators/players for a discourse while he invested exactly 0 brain calories in understanding the other side because they are all sheep in his eyes, as he has made clear.

It also seems irrelevant to me that there was no explicit warning after Durf himself was repeatedly very explicit with his views and questions concerning something that is absolutely none of his business in the original thread; the only real mistake on Lucifer's part was making the connection to the spam attack, which seems rather forgivable because it happened "in the heat of the moment", and who would actually have been surprised if that guy turned out to be Durf (then or in retrospect - that last part certainly wouldn't be a strong argument to ban Durf, but perhaps it's sufficient to understand Lucifer better, especially now after Durf actually threatened to do something much worse - so maybe Lucifer's instinct was just about right)?

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Re: Moderator Abuse...again

Post by xXSyagehtllikXx »

You pussy ass bitches iritate me

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Re: Moderator Abuse...again

Post by Overrated »

Zman has locked one topic, temporarily, that I have seen.

It seems (based on glimpses of the discussions) that everything you have been saying has been repetitive to your point and what you have been trying to address.

If I take the time to sift through the posts I may or may not see you having a change in stance. It would require more time to read through it all than I have free time to begin with so I'm opting to not do so. Note* I'm not saying you have just that you might have contradicted yourself at some point since there is a lot that you have said.

My main point from my post was this issue has been dragging on for over 3 months, possibly around four at this point. I want the discussion to come to an end. That is all.

With Tank now in the fold I hope this gets addressed properly.
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Re: Moderator Abuse...again

Post by Ratchet »

Short post - quick clarification.

I speak for the remaining sane people on this forum: "one post" is synonymous with "one <50,000 word post", Durf.

That is all.
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Re: Moderator Abuse...again

Post by Monkey »

Tank Program wrote:Moderation will probably become more aggressive.
Good. I think the forums will benefit from this...should've happened years ago IMO.
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Re: Moderator Abuse...again

Post by Word »

Personally I find it rather depressing if the forums need that because of a small but loud minority...

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Re: Moderator Abuse...again

Post by Ratchet »

I agree, Word. I like being able to tell someone they're full of shit if they are indeed full of shit.
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