The PM History

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Gazelle
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Re: The PM History

Post by Gazelle »

I have to ask Durf, because this has now been like 3-4 months? Why at this point do you even give a rat's ass? Like really, who are these people to you? Do they matter so much in your day to day that you are willing to spend countless hours trying to argue an opinionated point?? Are you going to get them in trouble? No! At the end of the day they are the mods and it really doesn't matter what you or anyone else says. Does it suck? Yeah, probably, although I've never put myself in a position like this on here, so I wouldn't know, maybe you enjoy it. Really though all you are doing is making yourself look worse, you are dragging this on... As Magi would say "let it go".

Overrated
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Re: The PM History

Post by Overrated »

I won't spend any more time after this. I have not read the PM's because they're completely irrelevant to the actual problem at hand.

The original issue that has caused this annoyance is the ban, which was not justified (in my humble opinion). The ban should have never been placed, this fact I can agree with. The fact it was 24 hours doesn't change the fact it shouldn't have happened. The problem with the ban itself was that it was reactionary and from what I've seen, based on a matter of personal opinion. There should have been a warning before the ban set place, but that is something that has been looked at, and I imagine taken care of between Lucifer and Z-man behind closed doors. The mods are typically very lenient from my experience being here, so the fact it happened at all means something was out of line somewhere. Again, personal opinion on an issue should be kept separate and this was one mistake from a typically good mod.

The underlying issue with this waste of time that I see here is TWO sides being stubborn over a small issue that could have been taken care of months ago. Why can't either side just bite the bullet and be civil about this. You could have solved this issue in two REALLY simple ways:

1) Lucifer apologizes for the rash ban (I think most people are in agreement it was quick and irrational), whether he meant it or not, regardless of his views on what Durf had said.
2) Durf apologizes for the comments and lets the issue go.

Durf, stop pursuing this, please. I know you want to voice your opinion and want to make sure that there is equality, but when you keep cramming an issue with two page responses every time you're going to get nowhere. It's been two months, how can you still want to fight this issue? How much time have you dedicated to something so petty?

I'm not saying one person was right, or one was wrong, because both are wrong in this situation. I'm just sick of this issue dragging on for months. It makes the forums look like trash when it's littered with this nonsense. Let. It. Go. Be adults.

I just want to be able to see the forums not filled with this vile taint over a petty issue.
Last edited by Overrated on Mon Feb 23, 2015 4:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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*16
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Re: The PM History

Post by *16 »

Overrated wrote:I won't spend any more time after this. I have not read the PM's because they're completely irrelevant to the actual problem at hand.

The original issue that has caused this annoyance is the ban, which was not justified (in my humble opinion). The ban should have never been placed, this fact I can agree with. The fact it was 24 hours doesn't change the fact it shouldn't have happened. The problem with the ban itself was that it was reactionary and from what I've seen, based on a matter of personal opinion. There should have been a warning before the ban set place, but that is something that has been looked at, and I imagine taken care of between Lucifer and Z-man behind closed doors. The mods are typically very lenient from my experience being here, so the fact it happened at all means something was out of line somewhere. Again, personal opinion on an issue should be kept separate and this was one mistake from a typically good mod.

The underlying issue with this waste of time that I see here is TWO sides being stubborn over a small issue that could have been taken care of months ago. Why can't either side just bite the bullet and be civil about this. You could have solve issue in two REALLY simple ways:

1) Lucifer apologizes for the rash ban (I think most people are in agreement it was quick and irrational), whether he meant it or not, regardless of his views on what Durf had said.
2) Durf apologizes for the comments and lets the issue go.
+1 from me. (except for that signature tho Over)
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compguygene
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Re: The PM History

Post by compguygene »

Ok. I just took the time to read through all of this and I have some initial impressions that I would like to share. My first is directed to Durf.
@Durf I know from personal experience, some of it with other tronners, that it is easy to get caught up in the correctness of your position and not see that the fight that you are having is wrong. It really looks to me, as an outsider with little preconceived notions that you got into a fight and felt the strong need to prove your position. You also perceived moderator abuse and felt the need to protect others from that, as well as yourself. While in and of themselves these emotions are very real, and the needs are very real, one must evaluate ones actions. At a certain point, you have to look at your arguments and ask the simple questions: How did I get here? What is the real value of my fight? Is the value of my fight worthy of the problems it is causing others?
Now I think that even if you had asked yourself those questions in the midst of this, you probably wouldn't have changed things one bit, and now is where I am hoping to enlighten you a little more about these things for your own betterment. To do so I will diverge with an anecdote from my own life.
My son also has a mild case of Asperger's and ADHD as well. When he was your age, he often carried on long arguments with my daughter, wife, and I about what were really the smallest of issues. He is now 20 years old and has begun to make more of an intellectual study of people. As such, he is doing a much better job of reading social cues and tends to curtail such arguments when he sees how they are decisive.
I would ask for a minute that you just simply forget about what the mods have said, because you may feel hurt or angry at them. Listen to what me and others in the community are saying and will say.
1. We would ask that you do your best to condense your posts that are "walls of text" to mere summaries. The normal communication format here is short for a number of reasons. This post is probably too long..
2. We would ask that you do your best to have a thick skin. Don't be so easily offended by stuff. As such we should do the same
3. End any sort of grievances with mods in this topic. We as a community are going to say stuff about this and the mods. BUT IT NEEDS TO END HERE.

@Z-man & Lucifer It is abundantly clear that you guys openly acknowledged that you had some real negative emotions regarding this mess and tried to let your heads clear and make good decisions. With my experiences as a moderatror, I can really understand how you may have felt. I do think that you might have handled things a little better, but I also recognize how much of that is back seat driving after the fact.

@The rest of the Community That this is even happening is not just a failure of Durf or the mods. It's on all of us. We, as a community have not done everything that we could have to mitigate this. I know that at a certain point, I just gave up and left it to the mods. I could have easily pm'd Durf and tried to help. I know that I am not alone in this. If we are going to be a healthy community, then that means a community. Not just users and mods.

I am going to just put this out there. Durf has shown his talent for programming and love for things Tronic. My personal hope here is to heal the rift between the mods and Durf. The hope is that the mods will have more time to write code and Durf will be motivated to contribute new code to the .4 code. I am also convinced that if we can get Durf to contribute, others like him that are silent but watching will also contribute.
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Word
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Re: The PM History

Post by Word »

@The rest of the Community That this is even happening is not just a failure of Durf or the mods. It's on all of us. We, as a community have not done everything that we could have to mitigate this. I know that at a certain point, I just gave up and left it to the mods. I could have easily pm'd Durf and tried to help. I know that I am not alone in this. If we are going to be a healthy community, then that means a community. Not just users and mods.
Compguy, I wouldn't say that - the mods and many people here, you and myself included, just wasted their time when someone remains as elusive as Durf. We did all we could.

I also disagree with everyone claiming the ban was about a matter of opinion and therefore unjustified, so that Durf would have a point if he rights a wrong by blackmailing the mods - all this relativizing is stupid. What Durf did afterwards outweighed any little malice that Liz or the mods possibly threw at him, and again we're left to discuss if he does this intentionally or not.

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Re: The PM History

Post by Overrated »

I guess I lied and I'll have to devote a few more minutes to this since I think I realized an important point to address.

We, as a community, have learned to accept the mods snipping the questioned bits out (which there is even more of now due to this) of discussions rather than stopping things immediately and issuing warnings. This is how it has been for awhile, and we're accustomed to being able to banter back and forth before we reach a certain threshold. Anything that is different from this norm will be viewed as inconsistent.

I didn't think it was fair to say Durf should have been banned when we have seen a lot worse being posted that dragged on for far too long. Hint hint, this issue has now dragged on too long. I honestly feel that if anything should come of this, Durf should receive some sort of punishment based on some of his actions and comments with, at this point, multiple warnings. Z-man and Lucifer have shown a lot of patience on this issue. This is what we are typically inclined to see. They are not ones to rashly make decisions and that is why the original ban felt so out of place and resulted in the backlash that we see now from Durf.

This all started on one immediate decision made by Lucifer. This decision caused Durf to be upset, and he continued to go after it, feeling wronged. From a community standpoint, I do think he was wronged in such a quick ban, but what he has continued to do afterwards is not helping his case. He is beating a dead horse.

However, overall they're both at fault, in some ways, regardless of the views of either person. It's a waste of time at this point for both sides and the best thing that can happen is for a conclusion to be made between the three (or the one main antagonist currently) behind closed doors without anymore interaction from the community. Just accept what has happened. It's dragged on long enough.

I don't feel like talking about this anymore, get to figuring out a proper solution for this. Everyone is vital to the community, but the topic itself is toxic.
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compguygene
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Re: The PM History

Post by compguygene »

You do have a point there, word. All I can say is that these were my initial impressions. I always tend to think in terms of failure of the team. In this case that would be all of us... On a personal note, I do think I could have done more.

As others have stated: It's time to move on. The long posts that make the forums virtually unreadable need to stop.

We, as a community, as Overrated stated, accept the mods editing of problematic posts. We ask that Durf do the same.

Honestly, a well run forum is a dictatorship. Hopefully, a benevolent dictatorship, but a dictatorship nonetheless. Over the years, we have come to trust these guys that are our mods. We all know that Lucifer is a court jester, just as his profile pic is. We all know that Lucifer can be a bit of a tyrant and a bit rash at times and count on Z-man and Tank Program to balance things, which they generally do. Personally, I have found all of the mods to be open to constructive criticism. The key word being constructive here.

Let's all get back to playing the game, coding the game, enhancing the game, and fixing issues with the game. I thought that, besides some purely entertainment stuff in Really General, that is what these forums were about.
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Venijn
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Re: The PM History

Post by Venijn »

Lucifer was wrong in enforcing the ban, but that doesn't make Durf right either.

I would have had a hell of a lot less patience than our mods have had, and I remain grateful that they haven't just walked away. As has been mentioned, if they simply chose to ban you permanently (i certainly would have,) they would have every right to. You were wronged, more of the community was behind you when it first happened, and it should have been left there. What you have done, is talk yourself into being the antagonising party and nobody wants anything to do with it.

I feel that many of us have known the mods years and their mannerisms, I think the same can apply in other instances where someone such as Liz might say something and it be taken more offensively than if I said it. Durf you seem to take everything everyone said literally, whilst your writing style implies more than it says... when that's pointed out, there's another filibuster of a reply. I've seen you in servers canvassing others to join in this discussion, I don't think I've seen anyone else do that, why do you need to encourage others to take your side? This should have been between you and the mods, and it should have been a much shorter conversation.

Both sides are losing this battle, the community is too fragile to put up with this bullsh*t any longer. Put up, or shut up. Much worse things happen all the time, you need to stop acting like this matters so much to you, I don't believe it does. It's more about point scoring than the actual issue at hand.

There's a term for this, it's Internet Trolling.
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Re: The PM History

Post by Z-Man »

The PM history is very incomplete. I specifically said ALL PMS from December to now. Remember how I said the bit that triggered this was in your last two messages?

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Re: The PM History

Post by Durf »

TL;DR: leave now.

(note: this post is still within the compromise - I'm only addressing structural issues and am not progressing the purpose of the thread for 96 hours since its post time)
(this is the only response out of chronological order)
@Z-Man: No Z-Man.
This is the entire "PM History" that you were afraid of being released.
This is what I mentioned that I could (and would) release to the public to show your unreasonable behavior.
What triggered this is how I made those claims publicly (what you call slander). Did you forget what you even said?


Asking for more than that can be seen as an attempt to violate MY privacy. Are you sure you want to be this much of a manipulative asshole?
If you truly insist, I can post EVERYTHING (100% of the PMs sent to and from Z-Man/Durf) so that everyone can see our entire history of interactions.
They will be able to see for themselves ANOTHER example where YOU actually abused your moderator status on me and I let it go (why? because I realized that it wasn't important or affecting other innocent users + I explained how you were just abusing anyway, so you should know better since then).

Not to mention that would include the very first PM I ever sent you (which shows my attitude towards abiding by the rules of the forum - I had to ask Z-Man if it was acceptable to post and where I should post - to be sure).

Z-Man, everything that is posted here is "the PM history" in it's entirety as it was when I said I would post it publicly and every time you were afraid of it going public.
The reason why was so that you could disprove my claims of you being an unreasonable moderator; that's basically what you said to everyone here.
Unless you have some other reason to want more? Do you have some hidden agenda perhaps?
Finish what you start; stop bullshitting your way around the issue.
You asked for this, here it is. Stop trying to make this my fault since you're the one demanding this.




@gazelle: I don't appreciate you buying into the false impressions people are giving on what's actually going on. I'm kinda getting tired of users like you being completely ignorant to the fact that Z-Man was the one to demand this of me.
Let me give you an idea of my point of view:
me: I'm going to post the PM history!
Z-Man: No don't!
Community: Yes do!
me: *reluctance out of respect for Z-Man's wishes*
me: *makes claims of what transpired in the PM history in other threads*
Z-Man: Post the PM history so everyone can see how I'm not unreasonable
me: *posts PM history*
Community: WTF DURF let it go!
me: please >_>

In all honesty, you guys are getting annoying on how you persist in thinking the worst / labelling me as some kind of flamer. Like I mentioned, I'm an obvious scapegoat - they WANT you to feel like I'm just adding garbage; think about it. Think about who brought up the past (THE PAST, unrelated to the more recent issues that I was discussing); just because I have the common courtesy, that the moderators lack, to actually address every issue brought to my attention, doesn't mean I'm going out of my way to add to the garbage of these forums.
Part of the problem are users who can't handle a thread with too many words (seriously...OH NOES too many words! Run away!) and simply try to dismiss them as another worthless thread. You are the ones who define it as garbage - you all turn a perfectly normal discussion of a very serious issue into something that everyone should hate - instead you can see it for what it is (not take part in it if you don't want) and let it progress until it's natural resolution.
I remind you, and everyone, that Z-Man was the one to bring up demands of posting the PM history, OUT OF NOWHERE because of a NEW issue I was trying to discuss (also note how this was done to AVOID the new issue); if you have a problem with this thread, talk to Z-Man about why he thought this was necessary.





@Overrated: This isn't the thread for that - try not to get this one locked. That being said, your paragraph about the initial ban is a decent summary; one thing I would note though is how you say "a typically good mod", and if you're talking about the one that issued the ban, you're sadly mistaken (they aren't "typically" a good mod, quite the opposite - if you want proof I can give it). But regardless, I agree with the paragraph's main point. THAT being said, you can see why I'm willing to go through a dispute process to get to the bottom of the issue; whereas their refusal to go through it only reinforces the thought that they are just abusive moderators.
So again, you have the wrong idea on what this thread is for. This thread is here to prove / disprove whether or not Z-Man was unreasonable as I claimed he was being.
The "underlying issue" as you put it, should indeed have been solved months ago - that's exactly why I claim Z-Man to be unreasonable and exactly why Z-Man demands this thread to exist. I don't appreciate being labelled as "stubborn" for doing what was asked of me.

Plus, when it comes down to your 2 very simple ways to solve it: I'm not going to apologize if there is no reason for me to. If I didn't break the rules, you're (not you but anyone really) just upset that I did something you didn't like (or simply thought was against the rules but isn't). I'm not about to apologize because you (again, not you in particular, but people, anyone in this situation) have a mental problem (obsession with thinking that I've done something wrong - get over it - it has been proven using the very same standards the moderators claim to enforce).

Overrated, please stop asking me to stop pursuing the issue. I remind you again that you are only seeing this because of a DEMAND made by Z-Man. There was absolutely no reason for you to be exposed to any of this (especially months after the fact). Stop trying to make it seem like I'm being anal about this and/or trying to ruin the forums; I'm not. Plus, regardless of this (or any public dealings), I should be free to pursue any disputes with the moderators without it being considered something I should just let go. If you were abused by a moderator, would you not dispute your unjust ban? If they avoided the issue for months, passed the issue onto the next mod, and the next mod, rather than just solve the issue, THEN cause more issues by further abuse on other users, would you not try to fix the problem? I see the problem, and I will fix it so it's no longer a problem.
Specifically: That old dispute is being "dealt with" by Tank Program at this point since (as you can see from the PMs), Z-Man abandoned the issue without resolving it. So let that be; stop getting offended by MY PERSONAL BUSINESS that is being dealt with in PMs - stop confusing that with a demand Z-Man made to bring up the past. I'm well aware of what everyone thinks of the issue(s), but in the end, someone will find something to complain about anyway. Ever try not being such a tightwad? (@everyone - those who can't just let a thread be without trying to label it as a flame war or otherwise something that should be let go)

You say things like "vile taint over a petty issue" - and frankly I agree with that. ASK Z-MAN why he thought this was necessary. ASK HIM.
But also, stop trying to label an ordinary discussion of a very serious issue (that NEEDS to be discussed at some point) as "taint" simply because it is not something you wish to discuss or perhaps has more than the number of words you expected from a thread. Discussions happen, of all sorts.
This doesn't have to be a flame war if people take this seriously. That being said, who are the one's taking this seriously? The mods? (no)

Just as bad as you think of taint threads, people will think of those who just can't stop complaining about them. You say we're arguing over something petty; you're the guy arguing that we're arguing over something petty (we all have no lives, GJ).
The differences in our approaches is that I will actually get something done (problem solved).





@compguygene: You have the wrong idea: The moderators are currently trying to defend the notion that they aren't just abusive tyrants. This isn't a "fight" (that would imply both sides have an equal chance of "winning" anyway) - this is a learning process for the community, and resistance is futile.
You also perceived moderator abuse and felt the need to protect others from that, as well as yourself. While in and of themselves these emotions are very real, and the needs are very real, one must evaluate ones actions. At a certain point, you have to look at your arguments and ask the simple questions: How did I get here? What is the real value of my fight? Is the value of my fight worthy of the problems it is causing others?
They are not emotions compguygene, they are facts (can be proven). I haven't stated any emotional response regarding my unjust ban(s) or the other moderator abuse. Besides that in itself making your point invalid, after evaluating my actions, I can only come to the conclusion that they are appropriate and not overstepping any boundaries. How did I get here? A discrepancy between the written rules and the enforced rules. What is the real value? Understanding for myself and all users (I don't even have to care about understanding for other users, I want to know how rules were broken so I don't break them again - I shouldn't have to walk on eggshells when making a post, I should feel confident in what I say not violating any rules - as every user should). "Problems it is causing others"...PLEASE compguygene. Stop doing that (you and other users). This wouldn't have to cause any problems for anyone else. I SPECIFICALLY tried to deal with the issue in PMs so as NOT to cause problems for anyone else (please, learn when you're making an ass out of yourself when you say things like that).
Ask Z-Man about why he thinks it's okay to "cause problems for others" by making the demand to have this history posted publicly.
Ask Lucifer why I'm not allowed to PM him, and why you are all forced to deal with this issue instead of it being dealt with privately.
Stop blaming me for something that simply isn't my fault - just because I respond what people instigate from me, doesn't mean I'm intentionally going out of my way to cause problems, nor does it mean I'm at fault (learn to identify the CAUSE of the problem before trying to solve it).

LOL "when he was your age" - you don't have a clue how old I am. Something you fail to realize is that I have quite the extensive knowledge on behavioral patterns and psychology. Besides my perception allowing me to see and analyze more than the average person can, the way I see things is something that might be hard for you to imagine.
Another way I can put it is that, I'm well aware of social etiquette, but purposely do not indulge in it; it is a choice as I see absolutely no purpose in it (I'm aware of how appealing to emotions can help, but when it comes to purpose, the readers make the choice to be ignorant or otherwise react based on their emotions - which simply isn't my problem; I'm not going to attend to every sissy's needs).
Those things being said, my motivation, purpose, and methods are probably something that would take a lot of explaining before you BEGIN to understand.
(it has actually taken me a while to realize what it would be like to be "normal", what it is like to run down the stairs without being consciously aware of every step you're taking and how you're taking it - right down to how the threads of the socks feel on your soles or the relative speed of each step. Put simply, there is a large gap between what you see/analyze and what I see/analyze)
When it comes to social cues, I couldn't care less. Prove to me their purpose and I might learn how to use them (I'm willing to learn this if you can teach me it).

Again, reminder: no emotions like being hurt or upset are directed towards the mods.
1) condensing my posts means one of two things: a) either no addressing certain issues or people (being ignorant / disrespectful) or b) posting valueless posts like "no u" and "nope, you're wrong" without their explanations. What you're asking of me is to give myself fault. This is my response, and either you show the courtesy of reading it all, or you're not worth being part of the conversation.
2) again you mistake "offense" for feelings, rather than a crime. Offense against the rules. When Lucifer's moderation contradicts the written rules, it's an offense. No one is going "Oh lord! Jesus save us!", but it's an ordinary word to use in this instance (a speeding ticket means you violated the maximum speed laws for the area, or the same can apply to theft; you committed an offense). If you're going to put the effort into not getting so offended, then stop treating lengthy posts like something to be offended at (you're getting ridiculous).
3) No. You are mistaken on the purpose for this thread. The old dispute is being dealt with by Tank Program via PMs (because Z-Man abandoned the issue). This thread's purpose is to prove or disprove whether or not Z-Man was being unreasonable as I so claim him to have been. That is the only "grievance" to be solved here. Anymore than that would demean Tank Program's position as ADMIN. (plus, Z-Man and Lucifer abandoned the issue. Even if I wanted to solve that old dispute here - they wouldn't)

I can appreciate your message to the community, but add "stop trying to label Durf for adding to a flame war when they were just doing what was demanded of them" to that list.
That being said, AGAIN you all need to be reminded that you need to be asking Z-Man why this thread exists (I've mentioned why, but your anger is misplaced - this is literally all Z-Man's fault).

"contributions to 0.4" - I'm not allowed to contribute unless it is under severe imposed conditions defined by Lucifer. Put simply, my contributions are not wanted. Regardless, if (and when) I contribute, it will change things drastically and this project will actually progress into the 21st century.

^ everything being said, don't get me wrong. I'm here to solve problems, and I've always been doing that. What you and everyone are getting upset about is how painful solving this (these) particular problem(s) are. To that I would say that you ask the moderators why both of them decided to abandon the dispute as an abusive tyrant (without justifying their actions). To any complaints I say, take it up with the moderators - there wouldn't be any issues had they not caused them.






@word: show everyone where I blackmailed the mods. Prove your claims. Or are you just an over-emotional asshat? I know for a fact that you're being ignorant when you say that. But it also shows just how far up their asses you are.
Not to mention how ignorant you make yourself seem:
Justified: "having, done for, or marked by a good or legitimate reason." (Google Dictionary)
Proving something to be justified or not is a fairly easy thing to do - ESPECIALLY when there are written rules to compare it to.
There isn't "a matter of opinion" regarding the ban other than the erroneous opinion the moderator(s) initially had to try and make the ban in the first place. If a rule was violated, and there was sufficient warning, ban was justified - else it was not. But this isn't the thread to solve that issue - this is about whether or not Z-Man was reasonable and resolved the dispute completely (rather than simply abandon it).
Doing all you could would be pursuing truth - but like I said, this thread isn't meant to finish the old dispute.
If you're referring to my lengthy posts when you say "what he did afterwards" - you're just being an asshole that can't deal with a long post and are trying to devalue my words because of your over-emotional response (use your brain and you might not look like an idiot). But let's call you out on your bullshit that you happily added to this thread...WHAT DID I DO?





@Overrated: Again, you have the wrong idea on who is the cause of yet another thread like the ones you all seem to hate.
But what you said about community expectations: any idea / discussion should be allowed to progress (no matter how lengthy it is) until its natural resolution. Any amount of preventing this is abuse by the moderators, especially when there are no rules being violated (do you know what forums are for?). If you accept moderator abuse as the "norm", then all I was ever asking was understanding (admittance).

I don't appreciate you suggesting that I deserve a ban because I'm doing what was asked of me - you're being an ignorant asshole.
Talk to Z-Man why he felt this thread was necessary. Ask Lucifer why things can't be dealt with in PMs so as to spare the community from things like this.
And if you actually went through the PM history, <snipped because this violates the compromise and the 96 hour thing...will say later>
I don't appreciate you calling this thread "backlash" since this was demanded of me (are you working together with the mods to take advantage of what I lack socially simply to discredit me? you aren't supporting them by taking such despicable actions).
I remind you that I wanted to deal with this in PMs only, and it could have been solved between Lucifer and myself; it wasn't (you have to ask why that is and realize that this was not my choice).

You're right about me feeling wronged; you're wrong about me being upset over it. I'm asking for understanding and/or admittance. If I was unjustly banned, I will ask why / wtf. If they say "you don't have a right to dispute" then it's basically saying that they are abusive tyrants. That being said, they took it upon themselves to prove otherwise (at least Z-Man did, obviously Lucifer wants to be a tyrant). Z-Man claims that they are not abusive tyrants and that all users are treated fairly. If that is the case, then I can expect fair treatment (such as being able to dispute my ban until its resolution).
What I'm after isn't some kind of retribution for the unjust ban, but an understanding of how things are run around here such that I know how to abide by those expectations (it is only because they claim not to be tyrants that I point out when they are). The only thing that causes an issue like this to remain unresolved is their own stubbornness and contradictions (they could simply admit to being abusive tyrants and I can treat them accordingly - issue resolved; otherwise they should meet the expectations they set).

I should remind you that the community needn't deal with this; take it up with Z-Man why he forced it on you. Learn to identify the cause.
It's a waste of time at this point for both sides and the best thing that can happen is for a conclusion to be made between the three (or the one main antagonist currently) behind closed doors without anymore interaction from the community. Just accept what has happened. It's dragged on long enough.
This is getting annoying how you all seem to think I'm dragging this along and trying to piss you guys off. I'm well aware of how much of a waste of time this thread is, but Z-Man asked for it, and unlike him, I will address his concern until its resolution.
The fact is I accepted that he abandoned the dispute; Tank Program is the one left with that task and IT IS via PMs.
Trust me when I say that I'm doing everything the right way here, and that in itself is being manipulated by those very tyrants to besmirch me - the sad part is how many of you are buying into it so easily (I expected more, but that's my own fault for assuming).
Ask Z-Man why he wanted interaction from the community.

This topic itself is not toxic, you only think it is because you look at the amount of words or the issue being DISCUSSED (not a flame war, learn the difference between a toxic thread and something of value like a real discussion) and have an emotional reaction to it (typically deriving from laziness and overall unpreparedness of dealing with it; guess what, you don't have to).
This thread is NOT MEANT TO FINISH THE OLD DISPUTE; Z-Man demanded this thread as a means of proving (rather disproving) the claims I made against him in other recent threads. This is meant to show whether or not Z-Man was unreasonable or otherwise unfit as moderator to finish the dispute. THAT'S IT. Stop trying to bring up the past or trying to make this into something more than it is supposed to be.
You are part of the reason why an ordinary discussion gets labelled as something to be hated. Get over it; discussions happen.

Don't talk about this anymore if you fail to understand the purpose of the thread - you are only ensuring this thread is toxic by doing so.
The solution is simple: Was Z-Man unreasonable?
That's all that is being answered here. So relax. The dispute itself is actually unrelated to the purpose of this thread.





@compguygene: I realize that you didn't have the chance to know what was going on before I was able to respond; meaning you posted in error a second time before I got here. So I'll keep this short:
As others have stated: It's time to move on. The long posts that make the forums virtually unreadable need to stop.
Talk to Z-Man about this thread and why he demands it to exist.
We, as a community, as Overrated stated, accept the mods editing of problematic posts. We ask that Durf do the same.
This thread is to prove or disprove whether or not my claims that Z-Man has shown himself to be unreasonable are true. In regards to post editing, I tried raising a very valid concern for a case where a moderator edited a post without reason (by definition an abuse of the abilities). If you're asking me to simply accept that users are abused like that, then I can easily do that if they admit to it - otherwise I must give them the benefit of the doubt and try to discuss to find the exact discrepancy.
Honestly, a well run forum is a dictatorship.
No. It's not. And I know this from experience. So long as the rules are clear enough for anyone to understand, and so long as the moderators enforce those written rules without bending them or showing favoritism, then everyone can rest assured that no one will be abused and that handling any and all disputes becomes EASY (effortless) because they would be arguing with a written rule (quite literally there wouldn't be a problem in enforcing whatever environment the owner decides upon). It is only when there are contradictions present that the moderators would have a difficult time - being a tyrant / dictator is literally asking to be known as an unreasonable, obsessive, and power hungry loser that ends up devaluing the website/forums itself. In the end, the moderators determine the overall value of the website; if you think being a dictator is good, you will only be stuck in a lower level of unworthy websites.
We all know that Lucifer can be a bit of a tyrant and a bit rash at times and count on Z-man and Tank Program to balance things
This is where the community is at fault. You GRANT Lucifer the permission to abuse his status, and EXPECT Z-Man and Tank to clean up after him. So you're already aware of the problem, yet you don't do anything to solve it? One could justify that it is because of his small penis that he feels the need to assert himself in such manners as a means of "balancing things out" in his reality - and as much as we'd like to appeal to people less fortunate than ourselves, it does not excuse the mistreatment of others. No one deserves to be mistreated for ANY reason; there is no excuse for Lucifer, he did (and does) something wrong.
Personally, I have found all of the mods to be open to constructive criticism. The key word being constructive here.
I urge you to read the PM history; and try to say that again about Z-Man.
that is what these forums were about.
Yep. That's the exact reason why I dispute via PMs. Take up your concerns with Z-Man - careful not to PM him though, you might get blamed for harassing him and hiding behind PMs.






@Venijn: You're basically saying I am right, but that doesn't make me right either. My claim (for the dispute) was that Lucifer made a mistake (was wrong in enforcing the ban). So how exactly was that wrong?
You mistake who is at fault for bringing up the past so as to annoy everyone. Talk to Z-Man why this thread exists. Ask him why he couldn't just let it go or why he couldn't deal with the issue I was trying to discuss with him rather than bring up something from the past.
Frankly, you are all being manipulated into thinking that what I'm doing is even a bad thing - get over yourselves. I can easily guarantee that you are more likely to do the same things I'm doing if you were in my position - otherwise you admit to having no self-respect and would sooner roll over for a lying tyrant than to solve the issue permanently. The only difference that I can see between us is the commitment I will put forth into reaching a resolution such that the problem will not be a problem anymore. As far as I'm concerned, anything less than that isn't worth it for anyone. I don't care if 100 people with no self-respect are behind me or not, and 1000 people like that wouldn't change anything other than the plethora of similarly useless posts ("omg guys let it go" "TLDR"). If you were something of value, you would offer something of value in your posts. More of the same complaint only shows your inability to think for yourself or to open your eyes and try to find the cause of the thread you're getting so upset about. All this being said, I don't actually care if I'm looked at as an antagonist - at the very least I know how to get results (even if the moderators try their hardest to prevent progression, they can only delay it).
Durf you seem to take everything everyone said literally
As everyone should since that would be making assumptions (note there is a difference between implying and inferring - some things can be seen obviously because they were implied; but if you see it when it is not there, you're only inferring it). And you should read my words for their literal meaning as that is how I'm conveying my thoughts - anything you infer from my words, you are inflicting upon yourself (good job on being an asshole to yourself).
I've seen you in servers canvassing others to join in this discussion
No you haven't. Not once have I encouraged anyone to take my side. In fact, I've specifically tried to mention on these forums that I have my own opinion and that you shouldn't group that opinion with anyone that you THINK is associated - people can form their own opinions (and given that I know my arguments aren't going to be proven to be wrong, I can remain confident even if no one tries to assist me). Besides that, the only thing I have ever said about this thread in game were things to ensure that people not get confused on the purpose of this thread (I mention how this isn't supposed to bring up the past dispute - this is by Z-Man's demand to prove or disprove my recent claims made against him). I don't believe that is asking anyone to support me, and if you inferred such a meaning, you're only going out of your way to make me into some asshole when I'm clearly not. You, sir, should check yourself.
This should have been between you and the mods, and it should have been a much shorter conversation.
This is the one thing you've said that is absolutely correct. And guess what? That was exactly what I was striving for. So you need to ask: Who was it that forced this to be public? Who was it that abandoned the issue without solving it (essentially leaving it unresolved so as to be able to bring it up later, like now)? Learn to use your brain before you post and make yourself look ignorant (I'm sure you're smarter than that - so get over your hurt feelings about me - stop criminalizing me for doing what I'm supposed to).
Both sides are losing this battle, the community is too fragile to put up with this bullsh*t any longer. Put up, or shut up. Much worse things happen all the time, you need to stop acting like this matters so much to you, I don't believe it does. It's more about point scoring than the actual issue at hand.

There's a term for this, it's Internet Trolling.
Not only are you choosing to be ignorant, but you are devaluing the opinions and feelings of others. Besides how you've already made an ass of yourself, you are dismissing a thread that Z-Man wanted to exist - if you were trying to support them by doing this, you failed so hard. I'm going to say this again: The old dispute is being "dealt with", and no one need deal with it. The old dispute is technically OFF TOPIC and whoever brings it up (like you) are just spamming this thread. The purpose of this thread is to prove or disprove the claim that Z-Man was being unreasonable. That should be fairly simple enough for you to understand - try again.
The "actual issue at hand" is proving the claim (among some more recent abuse cases - Z-Man is avoiding this, but we're dealing with what he wants to deal with first).



<Z-Man's response moved to the top>

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wap
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Re: The PM History

Post by wap »

lol

aint nobody got time for this shit

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Magi
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Re: The PM History

Post by Magi »

wap wrote:lol

aint nobody got time for this shit
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bye

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compguygene
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Re: The PM History

Post by compguygene »

Durf, if I have caused you offence, I am sorry to have done so.

It seems that we have 2 simple questions to ponder here:

Are the mods, specifically Z-man and Lucifer regularly committing moderator abuse? If so, what should be done about it?

Is Durf doing something here to abuse the mods and/or cause harm to the community at large? If so, what should be done about it?
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aP|Nelg
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Re: The PM History

Post by aP|Nelg »

compguygene wrote:Ok. I just took the time to read through all of this and I have some initial impressions that I would like to share. My first is directed to Durf.
@Durf I know from personal experience, some of it with other tronners, that it is easy to get caught up in the correctness of your position and not see that the fight that you are having is wrong. It really looks to me, as an outsider with little preconceived notions that you got into a fight and felt the strong need to prove your position. You also perceived moderator abuse and felt the need to protect others from that, as well as yourself. While in and of themselves these emotions are very real, and the needs are very real, one must evaluate ones actions. At a certain point, you have to look at your arguments and ask the simple questions: How did I get here? What is the real value of my fight? Is the value of my fight worthy of the problems it is causing others?
Now I think that even if you had asked yourself those questions in the midst of this, you probably wouldn't have changed things one bit, and now is where I am hoping to enlighten you a little more about these things for your own betterment. To do so I will diverge with an anecdote from my own life.
My son also has a mild case of Asperger's and ADHD as well. When he was your age, he often carried on long arguments with my daughter, wife, and I about what were really the smallest of issues. He is now 20 years old and has begun to make more of an intellectual study of people. As such, he is doing a much better job of reading social cues and tends to curtail such arguments when he sees how they are decisive.
I would ask for a minute that you just simply forget about what the mods have said, because you may feel hurt or angry at them. Listen to what me and others in the community are saying and will say.
1. We would ask that you do your best to condense your posts that are "walls of text" to mere summaries. The normal communication format here is short for a number of reasons. This post is probably too long..
2. We would ask that you do your best to have a thick skin. Don't be so easily offended by stuff. As such we should do the same
3. End any sort of grievances with mods in this topic. We as a community are going to say stuff about this and the mods. BUT IT NEEDS TO END HERE.

@Z-man & Lucifer It is abundantly clear that you guys openly acknowledged that you had some real negative emotions regarding this mess and tried to let your heads clear and make good decisions. With my experiences as a moderatror, I can really understand how you may have felt. I do think that you might have handled things a little better, but I also recognize how much of that is back seat driving after the fact.

@The rest of the Community That this is even happening is not just a failure of Durf or the mods. It's on all of us. We, as a community have not done everything that we could have to mitigate this. I know that at a certain point, I just gave up and left it to the mods. I could have easily pm'd Durf and tried to help. I know that I am not alone in this. If we are going to be a healthy community, then that means a community. Not just users and mods.

I am going to just put this out there. Durf has shown his talent for programming and love for things Tronic. My personal hope here is to heal the rift between the mods and Durf. The hope is that the mods will have more time to write code and Durf will be motivated to contribute new code to the .4 code. I am also convinced that if we can get Durf to contribute, others like him that are silent but watching will also contribute.
Percieved moderator abuse? I'm pretty sure the moderators did actually abuse their power, noone just "perceived" anything.

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Re: The PM History

Post by Ratchet »

Okay.

I'm really busy with college and things so I usually end up reading the forums once every 2-3-4-10 days or whatever. The last few times I've come on prior to this week, I've been met with relatively dormant topics and some simple discussions to browse through. However, this time, I had to read about 20 threads (minus a few that seemed uninteresting). Durf has posted in a vast majority of them, and so I feel as though I've developed a somewhat informed opinion:

Durf, stop being so obnoxious. Lucifer is a cool guy. Sure, he can be facetious, but who cares? Z-man is the farthest thing we have from a tyrant around here. And I certainly doubt he "abuses" any of his powers to the point of intentionally pissing people off.

You're purposefully attacking posts they make and taking things out of context to make them look like bad people. You're starting arguments over petty things left and right.

I'm beyond tired of reading about moderator abuse blah blah blah. I understand, it's about what's right and we have to discuss at length and argue for "justice." Stupid shit happens on the internet. Get over it. I'm tired of reading about it. I've had my fair share of idiotic arguments on the internet because I HAD to be right. I'm probably still not completely above it. But you're blowing this ridiculously out of proportion.

I would wholeheartedly support a motion to implement a meaningful (but short) ban. We need to get rid of this nonsense on these forums...

TLDR; can we please go back to crying about Liz playing in the ladle or something?
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