Knockout

[sinewav]

I like how you type your posts with (parenthetical phrases) to give yourself an escape route. You should choose a career in politics.

At this point, you're just splitting hairs. Also, your fantasy video game is one of the more disgusting things I've read in a while.

I'm glad you find it disgusting. You can now relate to how I feel about games where you can randomly hurt or kill people in spectacular bloody fashion. You still never answered for why you want to do that in a game? These hairs I am splitting are important ones. There is a hair-thin line between how you make decisions in a game and in reality. I know I am extreme in my views but I don't play war games because I am deeply non-violent. I would never under any circumstances go to war and kill another person. Most of you would.

Bottom line is it is a game where men and women in light cycles, crash to their death in a rather colorful explosion of cold metal and bloody entrails.

Pics or it didn't happen. Also, if any lightcycle game decided to indulge in gore like that I certainly wouldn't play it. Armagetron is no more violent and gruesome than chess. And for the record, all the realism introduced into Tron:Legacy was one of the things that made the movie garbage.

Difference is that these games actually (more often than not), make the main character the moral one...See in GTA, Trevor (the badass) literally goes on "rampages" and kills hoards of hippies because they call him an old man.

Wat?

Our armed forces play these kinds of games all the time and you don't see them (for the most part at least) going on killing/raping sprees.

No, never. It didn't happen here or all these other places. Our armed forces also play a totally unrealistic video game called "drone attack." It's a super boring flight simulator. Maybe you've heard of it?

On one point we might agree is that video games probably don't contribute to a significant amount of violence in the world. However, I think the popularity of gaming could and should be used to combat violence instead of glorifying or normalizing it.


I know this was not directed toward me but...

Right, and you would know that for certain because you've served in the armed forces, or experienced war in any personal way (which I REALLY doubt).

When my father came back from Vietnam he brought with him a couple gunshot wounds and horrors unimaginable. I got to experience the war by looking at his eyes as he described it. You can't imagine the terror in his face without seeing it. True, no game can capture the feeling of war, but it does no one any good at all to make war into light-hearted entertainment for you and your friends to enjoy.

[Fippmam]

What about the movies and simulations used by the army to train their soldiers, how do you explain those? There are even rumours that they used to show them images of ravaged corpses to lose their last stoppages. What about all the propaganda of totalitarian regimes?

Dude what the **** are you talking about? We're talking about video games here, not carefully orchestrated simulations that are utilized for soldier training.

I like how you type your posts with (parenthetical phrases) to give yourself an escape route. You should choose a career in politics.

Haha thanks. Unfortunately though, I've invested the last 3 years of my life pursuing a stupid degree in Biochemistry.

I would never under any circumstances go to war and kill another person. Most of you would.

Hmm, so cursed is the man who leaves his family behind to defend his nation. At this point, I'm not sure whether you would be praised for being passive, or ridiculed for being a coward. It's a touchy subject so that's all I'm saying about that.

Pics or it didn't happen.

Lol but you don't need pics. Your imagination is ample enough. Do you seriously play this game, thinking that bikes drive themselves? I mean I've seen those self-parking cars on YouTube, but I think that technology is beyond us at the moment.

No, never. It didn't happen here or all these other places. Our armed forces also play a totally unrealistic video game called "drone attack." It's a super boring flight simulator. Maybe you've heard of it?

Whoaaaa good thing I added that addendum. What can I say man, war makes people go crazy. Of course those are isolated incidents and haha, you'd have to REALLY try to convince me that those atrocities were a direct result of playing Call of Duty (or any other modern shooter), especially since raping women isn't a mission in the game. Um...nor is sending drones to kill civilians. You seriously need to play a modern shooter xD
Also like I told word, it's a simulator, not a video game. Video games are made for recreational purposes; simulations are made to instruct.

I think the popularity of gaming could and should be used to combat violence instead of glorifying or normalizing it.

I don't even know how this would work...

I know this was not directed toward me but...

Right, and you would know that for certain because you've served in the armed forces, or experienced war in any personal way (which I REALLY doubt).

When my father came back from Vietnam he brought with him a couple gunshot wounds and horrors unimaginable. I got to experience the war by looking at his eyes as he described it. You can't imagine the terror in his face without seeing it. True, no game can capture the feeling of war, but it does no one any good at all to make war into light-hearted entertainment for you and your friends to enjoy.

Fair enough.

[Word]

...not carefully orchestrated simulations that are utilized for soldier training.

As the quote clearly indicated that was directed at Light's post (to paraphrase: "normal people know the difference between reality and virtuality"), but my point is valid regardless. A quick google search for "use ego shooter for soldier training" shows about 2.650.000 hits. So in your opinion most video games aren't carefully orchestrated simulations that aim for "virtual reality"? Suffice to say you haven't answered the first question yet.

Well, you later said this:

Also like I told word, it's a simulator, not a video game. Video games are made for recreational purposes; simulations are made to instruct

Simulations and the visual/audible representation of artificial worlds and thought concepts are a vital part of video games, be it for educational purposes or not. Unless you present a valid argument for dividing the two, your statement is still meaningless.

[sinewav]

Hmm, so cursed is the man who leaves his family behind to defend his nation. At this point, I'm not sure whether you would be praised for being passive, or ridiculed for being a coward.

Standing up for principals takes courage. In no way would I ever feel shame for my dedication to non-violence even if it meant losing everyone I love in the world. This is because I aim to love all sentient beings equally. I don't even kill insects when it is avoidable.

...but you don't need pics. Your imagination is ample enough.

Imagination is at the heart of the discussion. The more abstract a game is the greater degree of freedom to imagine. That's why people generally don't imagine a knight skewering a bishop with a lance in chess (though strangely some people do). When playing a war simulator it's pretty hard to imagine something other than a person dying in agony when blood and gore is thrust upon you. If you want to imagine there are living humans in a lightcycle you can do that. I prefer to see soulless programs inside that I can rerezz at any time without consequence. There is nothing in the game (or the movies) that direct me to believe otherwise.

Of course those are isolated incidents and haha, you'd have to REALLY try to convince me that those atrocities were a direct result of playing Call of Duty (or any other modern shooter), especially since raping women isn't a mission in the game.

This is the opposite of my previous point. I don't believe FPS make people do horrible things. I believe they desensitize people and make light of violence. To re-explain my point about rape in a video game: If we continue on the path to adding realism and shock/gore in games, it's only a matter of time before we add the rape and torture of refugees. It is sad but there are definitely people who would enjoy such gameplay. But escalating shock and gore adds nothing to the game, rather we should strive to break down games to their pure elements. Also, "isolated incidents" is a naive view of the role and frequency of rape during war.

...nor is sending drones to kill civilians

We are already there man: http://bf4central.com/battlefield-4-drone-strike/

[takburger]

When I was younger I used to be fishing a lot (and killing the fish etc) and I killed many insects and stuff, and I killed millions in FPS or other games. Yet today I feel guilty if I kill a fly or an ant or a spider (not even considering a fish), but I really enjoy playing Hitman.

I know you can say "one example does not make law" or something like that but still...

Oh and I just remembered a game where the point was to crash yourself (not even talking of funny suicide people do in games).

Maybe some people get desensitized but video games aint responsible imho

[Soul]

Standing up for principals takes courage.

Yes, the board of education will give you many props for this.

I'm not really sure how you can say games like CoD are realistic war simulations. If you knew anything about modern warfare you'd know that these games are nothing like it. Call of duty is sort of a glorified game of dodgeball if you really think about it. The fun of it is getting as many people out (killed) as possible.

However, there definitely are some connections between violence in real life and video games. There have been many studies that confirmed this.

For example, I'm sure you all heard about the Newtown shooting last year. I live in Connecticut so I researched it quite a bit. There are a few key points that I want to highlight here that are relevant to this:
1. The killer was 20 years old
2. The killer had serious social and mental issues
3. He often played video games(many shooters)

Now, in my opinion, I do think that the games may have contributed to this tragedy. However, the dude was clearly ******* insane. I don't think that anyone with stable mental capabilities take these things any further than what they are, a game.

[Titanoboa]

Play Classic Snake Online
In this game, the goal is to feed a snake to the point where its terrarium becomes too cramped for it to survive. When there is no space left and the snake reaches its inevitable death, you win! There is no option to upgrade to a bigger terrarium when the snake gets too big and there's no vegetation of any sort, just plain floor. This is definitely animal cruelty and anyone who would enjoy playing such a game is... Ok I'll stop there.

I guess my point is that everyone draws their line somewhere. I'm personally more towards sine's side in this argument as I don't enjoy killing or hurting virtual humans or animals that remind me of reality...

Do these kids who play "knockout" do it because of violent, realistic video games where the consequences of an assault are not an issue? I assume there is a correlation, but that guess is not based on any facts.

[Light]

Play Classic Snake Online
In this game, the goal is to feed a snake to the point where its terrarium becomes too cramped for it to survive. When there is no space left and the snake reaches its inevitable death, you win! There is no option to upgrade to a bigger terrarium when the snake gets too big and there's no vegetation of any sort, just plain floor. This is definitely animal cruelty and anyone who would enjoy playing such a game is... Ok I'll stop there.

I guess my point is that everyone draws their line somewhere. I'm personally more towards sine's side in this argument as I don't enjoy killing or hurting virtual humans or animals that remind me of reality...

I'm not saying I enjoy killing things in games because they're realistic. Hell, I don't even play them games. I just don't see people that do as bad because they enjoy it.

Do these kids who play "knockout" do it because of violent, realistic video games where the consequences of an assault are not an issue? I assume there is a correlation, but that guess is not based on any facts.

Every time I've heard of studies being done, it showed either no difference or actually in the opposite direction where the games were a harmless outlet for people. I never put much research into it because this isn't really a topic that interests me at all, but I hear and get linked to some here 'n there. It might be worth looking up sometime.

[sinewav]

As I stated before, I don't think violent games cause much violence directly. I do believe they make people apathetic to violence. Games like knockout happen because of many socioeconomic factors, one of them being a culture that normalizes violence. Video game violence is not the cause, but a single contributing factor.

Paintball attacks are another type of violent crime we can do without. A search will find you dozens of similar paintball related stories.

Personally, I think if you "need an outlet" for violence you should probably go see a therapist immediately.

[Fippmam]

Unless you present a valid argument for dividing the two, your statement is still meaningless.

I'm not entirely sure who you think you are, but until you provide a valid argument yourself, your rebuttals mean nothing.

As I stated before, I don't think violent games cause much violence directly. I do believe they make people apathetic to violence.

This I can agree with. Although, desensitization happens with all forms of modern media (mostly movies and music), not just video games. This discussion is about normal healthy humans though, not people that are naturally predisposed to homicidal or otherwise violent tendencies. The killer in the incident that Soul mentioned had obvious mental problems that should be taken into account before any conclusions about the cause and effect of video games and violence can made. If the coefficient of determination in that relationship was as high as you're making it out to be, I'm sure incidents like that would be the norm, since basically every child plays COD now-a-days.

[Word]

but until you provide a valid argument yourself

I did that here. Or can you disprove it? Where do you get the idea that simulations and video games are usually something different?

Simulations and the visual/audible representation of artificial worlds and thought concepts are a vital part of video games, be it for educational purposes or not

[Jonathan]

This world would be a much better place with l̵e̵s̵s̵ f̵e̵w̶e̵r̵ more J-walkers.

FTFY. Cars and drivers should have fewer rights and more obligations, if anything.

If you want to imagine there are living humans in a lightcycle you can do that. I prefer to see soulless programs inside that I can rerezz at any time without consequence. There is nothing in the game (or the movies) that direct me to believe otherwise.

This is where it gets hairy. What is it that makes animals conscious, as opposed to sufficiently complex programs? Granted, the Armagetron AI is unlikely to experience qualia of any significance. But, in principle, if there are qualia, wouldn't it be among the most immoral things imaginable to deny their existence? I do accept your point, but with caution.

[sinewav]

What is it that makes animals conscious, as opposed to sufficiently complex programs?

Yeah I know we can go off the deep end of this subject. My personal view is that consciousness arises in degrees parallel to complexity. I'm not sure there is a program yet written that is as complex as a living cell. (Cool cell animation here.) Now, even if we did write AI that developed a degree of consciousness, the next hurdle is to determine at what point does it experience pain and suffering, the later being the most important. All living things experience pain (plants, fungus, bacteria), but suffering is a mental formation that requires an unknown degree of consciousness. It's a specific kind of pain. Can a dog experience suffering? Definitely. When you damage a plant it has a physiological response that can be seen as no different than pain, but does a plant suffer? Probably not. It's not clear if a plant has a mind. Does a honeybee suffer? There is no way to tell, but I am leaning toward not harming insects in order to reduce suffering. It is all thanks to my goofy Buddhist training.

[Jonathan]

You can go further along this line of reasoning. Is death itself that bad, consciousness-wise? You'll probably feel some pain and distress leading up to it. Others will miss you. But death itself doesn't feel like much. Furthermore, the things that are felt have neural correlates, which makes it likely that a program that has no well-developed concept of its own death won't feel a thing.

How is the information linked up to actual percepts? I get how information indicating the presence of an abrasion would trigger a pain signal. But what turns that signal into a felt experience? Do the laws of nature somehow figure out the purpose and give rise to a matching percept? Was it selected for? What are these qualia, anyway? It is expected that we'd all report on having qualia regardless of their actual existence, and we do. But what I feel is definitely real in some sense. What gives rise to what? So many questions.

For the record, this is a very narrow-minded view of morality. You could put us all on painkillers, and we'd injure ourselves badly and die happy. Would it be moral if we did that to ourselves? To other species? You could ruin all of life, painlessly, sidestepping the morals that would normally make this an abhorrent thing to do (idealized painkillers also neutralize distress triggered by our moral sense). I'll leave this one open and (fortunately) out of reach. It is not for us to decide whether life is inherently good or bad; fact is that we have to live with it, and there are better and worse ways of doing so.

In reality we're quite destructive, however, and not that good at avoiding suffering. We just haven't adapted to having this much power. We don't quite comprehend the implications of our actions, which becomes a big deal at this level. Many of our choices will be selected against in the near future. Not just within our own species, either. Apparent lack of suffering would only add to the façade we're trying to uphold, that we're really doing a good job. All else being equal, less suffering is better, but you know that's not how it works. I'll definitely call this destructive meddling immoral!

I'm derailing a thread again.

[Tobe]

Have any of you come across this before?

From the video I'm guessing it's originated in the US of A (I don't even know if it has spread, though). Is it common?

Wow, I've never heard or seen something like this before. Usually when kids play violent games, it's with each other, not random and uninvolved civilians. When I read the link, I thought you were talking about that other "game" that spread around a few years back where kids would choke each other and see how long one could last without calling uncle or becoming unconscious. This is obviously much worse, though.

At the rest of this thread:
Now I feel bad for playing fighting games; but how could I not smile after landing one of these http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzuBZAsTLzo
or my favorite http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MR4iaKkXR00