Streaming Gold 2 games in League of Legends

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Vogue
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Re: Streaming Gold 2 games in League of Legends

Post by Vogue »

Mecca wrote:The winning region earned an additional spot at worlds. Also, the top 4 teams earned a first round bye at worlds.
Didn't help them, very telling.

3/5 of the NA team didn't even make it to worlds.
Exactly.




Royal or NJS will win worlds.

dinobro
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Re: Streaming Gold 2 games in League of Legends

Post by dinobro »

Mecca wrote:The language barrier means next to nothing when you practice ~40 hours a week with the same team for an entire season; no excuse there.
So you're speaking there about AllStars, and you say that language barrier means nothing? 2 players of the EU team were from Gambit Gaming, all russian team that guess what, they use russian to communicate when they play. Alex Ich speaks a little english, but Diamonprox - the jungler, speaks no english whatsoever. In pro level of play communication is almost everything. Now imagine your jungler has no idea what are you trying to say. Now you still think it's not a disadvantage? When you think about soloq - you think about NA style. Everyone speaks english and can communicate. It wasn't the case for the allstar EU team. So obviously NA had an advantage.

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-*inS*-
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Re: Streaming Gold 2 games in League of Legends

Post by -*inS*- »

I think overall NA and EU are pretty similar. Fnatic is probably the best team from both regions with c9/gambit close behind. Other than those 3 every other team in both regions has some significant problem holding them back from playing at the top level.

Also a major reason the eu lcs had so much parity was because the stronger teams like gambit and fnatic didn't perform well during the summer split. Gambit in particular had to travel 15 hours just to compete every week (interesting post about that here). Anyone who has seen worlds can't possibly think "oh SK could be in same position as fnatic now because they went 3-1 vs them in summer split".

Anyways if I had to place a reason on why some teams besides the 3 i mentioned aren't good:

CLG: They are constantly talking about "potential" swapping players around but never reaching said potential. Maybe if they stick with this roster they can improve.
EG: didn't adapt to Season 3 meta, probably should have changed roster but they are all likable people so I don't see that happening.
Lemondogs: They need more experience as a team, I think zorozero is their strongest player. They made some very questionable decisions at worlds.
TSM: I really thought TSM did well strategically at worlds, their problem is that oddone is too predictable, he doesn't help dyrus enough. Every game dyrus gets dove and ends up on tilt. Also regi really can't be managing the brand and playing, pretty self explanatory.
Vulcun: Of course everyone knows zuna can't position, but the bigger problem is they don't communicate mid game when other teams group up. I think they would get rolled by any Chinese team. They do have a good mid lane and jungler though.

One team I was hoping to make worlds was NiP...back when they had Svenskeren they were really strong even with a weak top laner. Excited to see how they do with the 2 players from SK.
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takburger
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Re: Streaming Gold 2 games in League of Legends

Post by takburger »

Mecca you're drunk, go home...

When saying that pro EU/NA is pretty close and i'm ok (even if TSM is shit and Dyrus was so mad saying groupB was easier then Cloud9 got steamrolled anyway) with that. Lets say pros are quite the same level.

Now we can just base that you suppose that the distribution of the skill is linear across players.

Well it isn't at all.

I've been playin this kind of game for a long long time (I was VIP dota league member), I can tell you the difference between NA and EUW while playing being not pro:
- NA are just newbies that perform well (no harm saying that, you can see all the accounts of the people are rather new, in loading screen, even in gold1 games you barely see any guy with gold or even silver profile around champion picture)
- EUW well everyone got something and when you check lolnexus you see all the accounts are old accounts.

What difference does it makes:
- What we've seen and what is typical in American LOL style and that doesn't work vs Asians is that US players do some clever calls, but they lack experience and they are no mature, so they always do mistakes. Asians DON'T do mistakes at all and will abuse every mistake you do. And you find this in NA server, it was horrible when I was playing, people with total lack of evaluation of the outcomes.

Like litteraly with 200 ping I did ad carry to gold2 No prob in NA, I switched back I was silver 2 in EUW with 35 ping and it was kind of the same stupidity but I was able to hypercarry.

Now I'm gold 2, my mmr is too high for my division so I jumped from gold5 straight to gold3 and I can tell you, Gold 2 in EUW is still shit, but it is WAY above NA, like crazy above.

And that's just because we europeans gamer are older in age comparatively with the NA kids, and so the competition to the 1% of the best mmr is harder.

Another point for other servers:
I lived in China and I can assure you that the level there is rather low. Why ? Because in China there are Internet regulations that request every game to come with another program that will shut down your game and disable you from launching any game when you've played more than 3h/day. And you need your ID number to be able to play LoL there (yes Riot is following all of the Chinese hardcore laws on internet, well Riot is owned by a big chinese company anyway (Tencent technologies if I recall well)).

There is a server in Taiwan, but it is a small country (I bet some Chinese go there too) and well, who says small country says small player pool, so even if the very few players are gods, still it is a damn small country to have a big pool of good players.

Korea: I have no info about them, but I know the pros are gods.

Other countries do not count (philippinos, brasil, oceania).

EDIT: Ins: We'll see if TSM and Fnatic are close, I don't think so why ?
1: TSM got steamrolled by OMG, OMG got owned by RYL, lets see how Fnatic do vs RYL, if they win it means they steamroll OMG who steamroll TSM
2: Fnatic beated Cloud9 pretty badly while Fnatic is very well known and Cloud9 rather new and considered epic. Which means Fnatic could not prepare as much as Cloud9 could and they still owned them (and Cloud9 owned TSM so TSM is trash. Nuff said).
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Re: Streaming Gold 2 games in League of Legends

Post by -*inS*- »

So if I am reading this right, Europeans are better at League of Legends than Americans, because your limited subjective experience in low elo ranked on each server.

I hope you realize that nearly every property about people is distributed along a bell curve. Give me a scientific reason why EU's mean would be higher than Na's other than "NA all kiddies"

When did I say TSM was close to fnatic wtf?
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takburger
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Re: Streaming Gold 2 games in League of Legends

Post by takburger »

-*inS*- wrote:So if I am reading this right, Europeans are better at League of Legends than Americans, because your limited subjective experience in low elo ranked on each server.

I hope you realize that nearly every property about people is distributed along a bell curve. Give me a scientific reason why EU's mean would be higher than Na's other than "NA all kiddies"

When did I say TSM was close to fnatic wtf?
About TSM: nowhere, my bad.

About the scientific reason:

Bell curve, I call it Gaussian distribution. Anyway, scientific proof that the mean is higher ? Well didn't I just tell that NA players accounts had no Season 2 track while EUW accounts have S1 and S2 therefore have more experience and therefore a higher mean ?

EDIT: the concept of 'higher mean would have a meaning if skill was measurable across server, but elo/mmr/lolking score are data that compare players of one server and is not comparable to other servers. Also, why would riot demote me of 3 divisions when i'm switching server ? They might now about that difference...

Yeah I said that gold 2 NA was nothing like gold 2 EUW and I stand by this, and I can't give you more proof that the basic logic I just pointed out just before because a proof would mean what, a match vs all EU vs all NA ? I can't do that.

About pro teams it is different, same rules do not apply (for science here, when you're too far from the center of a Gaussian distribution, you can be considered as a statistical error which means that if it is not an error (those players do exist) then it means that the rules that apply of the group you consider (here the community of the NA/EUW server) do not apply to them.

Shall I do Chi-squared test or is it enough logic for you ?
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Re: Streaming Gold 2 games in League of Legends

Post by -*inS*- »

Bell curve, I call it Gaussian distribution. Anyway, scientific proof that the mean is higher ? Well didn't I just tell that NA players accounts had no Season 2 track while EUW accounts have S1 and S2 therefore have more experience and therefore a higher mean ?
Where are you getting this data from?
Yeah I said that gold 2 NA was nothing like gold 2 EUW and I stand by this, and I can't give you more proof that the basic logic I just pointed out just before because a proof would mean what, a match vs all EU vs all NA ? I can't do that.
Yes I am saying you don't have the data to support the claim that EUW is harder than NA solo queue.
About pro teams it is different, same rules do not apply (for science here, when you're too far from the center of a Gaussian distribution, you can be considered as a statistical error which means that if it is not an error (those players do exist) then it means that the rules that apply of the group you consider (here the community of the NA/EUW server) do not apply to them.
I'm not even considering pro players here. If you take a random sample of people from NA/EUW solo q, they will fit into a bell curve of skills. You are suggesting that the mean of the EUW curve is significantly higher than NA's. I am curious about why there is any reason to believe that. One valid reason as you stated would be EUW has been playing the game much longer, however I don't see any factual evidence to back that claim up.
Shall I do Chi-squared test or is it enough logic for you ?
On what?

Anyways feel free to write a proof and convince me if you can find any sort of data. Don't be shy about any maths, I'm getting my masters in mechanical engineering this spring.
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takburger
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Re: Streaming Gold 2 games in League of Legends

Post by takburger »

-*inS*- wrote:
Bell curve, I call it Gaussian distribution. Anyway, scientific proof that the mean is higher ? Well didn't I just tell that NA players accounts had no Season 2 track while EUW accounts have S1 and S2 therefore have more experience and therefore a higher mean ?
Where are you getting this data from?
Yeah I said that gold 2 NA was nothing like gold 2 EUW and I stand by this, and I can't give you more proof that the basic logic I just pointed out just before because a proof would mean what, a match vs all EU vs all NA ? I can't do that.
Yes I am saying you don't have the data to support the claim that EUW is harder than NA solo queue.
About pro teams it is different, same rules do not apply (for science here, when you're too far from the center of a Gaussian distribution, you can be considered as a statistical error which means that if it is not an error (those players do exist) then it means that the rules that apply of the group you consider (here the community of the NA/EUW server) do not apply to them.
I'm not even considering pro players here. If you take a random sample of people from NA/EUW solo q, they will fit into a bell curve of skills. You are suggesting that the mean of the EUW curve is significantly higher than NA's. I am curious about why there is any reason to believe that. One valid reason as you stated would be EUW has been playing the game much longer, however I don't see any factual evidence to back that claim up.
Shall I do Chi-squared test or is it enough logic for you ?
On what?

Anyways feel free to write a proof and convince me if you can find any sort of data. Don't be shy about any maths, I'm getting my masters in mechanical engineering this spring.
As I said, there is no data you can base yourself on because it is two different realms.

But lets say that playing 400 ranked games at gold elo give a reasonable random samples (you should know at your level that it is widely accepted at this level (400*10 makes 4000 players which is quite representative).

Lets say I have the same amount of games in EUW so I have to samples of two different environments.

Each of the sample is given the same rank (gold).

Lets say that now an observer is placed into those two samples.

In the first Sample (NA): he climbs easy while playing not his main role and having lag
In the second Sample (EUW): he climbs easy while playing his main role and not having lag

He then assess you that his experience, while not backed up by data, is quite representative and kinda obvious; he tells you that he felt that NA seemed like silver EU for him, because now in EU (at the same rank he was in NA) he cannot play well something that is not his first role.

So:
How can an observer climbs a ladder to a certain height with 2 handicaps somewhere and not be able to climb the same thing with only 1 handicap ?

There are 2 explanations:
1: he started to suck (well from a week to another, i dunno, its questionable)
2: the two samples do not have the same level

About chi squared: it was about pro and gaussian distrib. not needed anymore.
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-*inS*-
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Re: Streaming Gold 2 games in League of Legends

Post by -*inS*- »

Okay so other than your own experience there is nothing to go on. What I'm looking for a theory to back up your experimentation.

For example:

NA solo queue is easier than EUW.
why?
Because
- The population is less skilled on average than on EUW.
why?
Because
- The game was released later in NA.
- People on NA play less
- The games are full of foreigners with bad ping
- EU takes game more seriously
(Note: I just made these up)

If there is such a significant difference between NA and EUW solo q, there HAS to be a some large dynamic behind it. Claiming gold NA = silver EUW would imply that 63% of the EUW could be at least gold in NA (top 15%). Surely if there was such a disparity we could find some obvious difference between the two regions.
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takburger
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Re: Streaming Gold 2 games in League of Legends

Post by takburger »

-*inS*- wrote: - People on NA play less
thats the very argument i raised in the first place and you rejected it.
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Mecca
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Re: Streaming Gold 2 games in League of Legends

Post by Mecca »

takburger wrote: But lets say that playing 400 ranked games at gold elo give a reasonable random samples (you should know at your level that it is widely accepted at this level (400*10 makes 4000 players which is quite representative).
400 * 9 (you don't count as one of these players) = 3600. There are ~134,251 gold players.

2.7% of a segment of players that constantly changes is a pretty poor representation, especially when you consider:
-In gold 2 and 1, you will start to notice players you have been matched with in previous games.
-Players who are punished for breaking the summoner's code sometimes have their season rewards erased (I know for sure this happens with elo boosting, I'm not sure what other offenses can cause this)
-Players may make smurf accounts
-Players might not have played ranked in past seasons

You're working with a pretty small sample of players, dude.

All players on NA speak English? You're joking, right? Or were you one of those players who posts on the forums saying how there needs to be a language option factored into ranked queues? I would agree that a larger percentage of players on NA speak English; but no, not everyone speaks English on the NA server.

If you want to compare advantages, don't forget that the EU pool of players is twice as large as the NA pool of players (according to http://www.lolsummoners.com/).

Fnatic really didn't stomp C9. It was a close match.
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takburger
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Re: Streaming Gold 2 games in League of Legends

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Mecca wrote: You're working with a pretty small sample of players, dude.

Fnatic really didn't stomp C9. It was a close match.
Well in term of percentage I agree it is rather small. But, to come back on Ins argumentation about university and stuff... I'm currently reading this book: Bryman, E. Bell (2007), Business research methods, Oxford University Press

Along with many business research papers. And guess what, researchers make studies with smaller samples and it is accepted by the community.

For Fnatic vs C9. We haven't been watching the same game then oO They won the first match normally (discovering some unkown people), then they made a very very very big picking mistake and lost, then they just understood C9 and owned them so ******* badly man on that third match. I'm not saying that C9 is bad, no they are very good. But Fnatic has this thing that put them really above, and it is something we can see in NA as well in EU teams, just that they do it perfect.

I don't think they'll win and I support Royal Club but I think they show the occidental plays for US and EU, and it is totally different from asia. (and to be frank i think the final will be sk t1 vs fnatic and sk wins.)
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Mecca
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Re: Streaming Gold 2 games in League of Legends

Post by Mecca »

The first game was extremely close until Fnatic got a little bit ahead, and used their advantage to pull out the win.
Fnatic did pick poorly in the 2nd match, which is just as much part of the game as playing. They fell behind, and C9 rolled out a win with their advantage.
C9 made a mistake pretty much right at the beginning of the game, and Fnatic closed it out fast.

Both teams essentially threw a game, and the first game was very close.
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Re: Streaming Gold 2 games in League of Legends

Post by Vogue »

Fnatic stomped C9 1st and 3rd, 2nd Fnatic had an extremely stupid pick (tf vs fizz?!??!?!?!) yet they still had good moments and only started losing later on due to have worse teamfight. Those games weren't hard for Fnatic at all. :mrgreen:

Anecdotal evidence for insa: I have gold/silver experience on both NA/EU and I found the competition way higher on EUW. NA was a n00b trollfest.

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Mecca
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Re: Streaming Gold 2 games in League of Legends

Post by Mecca »

lol fanboy lol
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