Education! (Split from Drawing Game)

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ConVicT
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Re: Education! (Split from Drawing Game)

Post by ConVicT »

I found this through the other link from the "Xbox One" thread but I think this clears this up as it did with that thread tbh

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sinewav
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Re: Education! (Split from Drawing Game)

Post by sinewav »

ConVicT wrote:I found this through the other link from the "Xbox One" thread but I think this clears this up as it did with that thread tbh
I ialready posted that link in this thread on page 12. More evidence you are not paying attention.

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Re: Education! (Split from Drawing Game)

Post by ConVicT »

My link is more direct, your link makes me choose for myself, which some may not.

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Re: Education! (Split from Drawing Game)

Post by Light »

ConVicT wrote:My link is more direct, your link makes me choose for myself, which some may not.
To be fair, it's the only obvious choice when he said it's relevant.

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Re: Education! (Split from Drawing Game)

Post by Z-Man »

Ah yes, three forms of invalid arguing here.
1. Turn the other side's argument into a caricature.
Bytes wrote:I find it silly and unrealistic that feminist gamers would call for these games to be somehow gender neutral. You're just making games less enjoyable for one subset of people without making them as appealing as they could be to the other.
It's about neither of those. It's about simply making games and gaming communities not actively offensive to women. That's not gender neutrality, not feminism, simple common sense. How would you feel if a game's character selection gives you the choice between a no-nonsense woman in plate armor and a muscular guy in a thong (bulging, obviously)?

2. Declare that someone else needs to solve that.
ConVicT wrote:I found this through the other link from the "Xbox One" thread but I think this clears this up as it did with that thread tbh
Yes, more women are needed in game development, in all areas. Yes, it would help. But that is no excuse for the rest of us to put our feet on the table, declare there is nothing we can do about it and get back to calling each other gay on COD. And no, nobody is asking anyone to think like a woman, to make games specifically addressing woman problems. Not gamers, not game developers. All that is requested is that women be treated as proper persons, both players and game characters (as far as you would treat a corresponding male character as a person, anyway; Ms. Pac-Man does not apply). We men have nothing to lose in this.

3. Apply circular logic to justify the Status Quo.
Bytes wrote:At the moment gaming is geared towards male gamers hence that is where it sells most.
And therefore companies have incentive to appeal to the male gamer only without consideration for women. If a problematic circular causal chain is identified, you should work on your part of the chain. Nothing big is demanded. No boycotts or picketing. But let developers know that you would not mind seeing sensibly dressed lady knights sometimes. That it is OK for a woman to just be in the game without immediately becoming the main guy's love interest.

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Re: Education! (Split from Drawing Game)

Post by Bytes »

First off, there are many male targeted games where the hero is a muscular guy in skimpy clothes. That defines at least half of fantasy game heroes and is pretty much the definition of how a superhero is dressed.
But anyway, that side skips the point I was making entirely, which is that men want one thing, and women want another. Trying to meet half way is the least optimal solution as far as enjoyment goes.

I'm not actually sure what you're trying to get at with that last point, you seem to have quoted it as though what I said was some kind of opinion I held. It was clearly an opening statement trying to explain why the market is currently so heavily male gamer biased. Never at any point do I try and 'justify' this, I never even say I agree that this should be the status quo.

You seem to be putting words in my mouth here Z-man...
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Re: Education! (Split from Drawing Game)

Post by sinewav »

Bytes wrote:First off, there are many male targeted games where the hero is a muscular guy in skimpy clothes.
This is in line with the "I'm not racist I have black friends" argument, and it misses Z-Man's point. In those games there is probably only one choice. You can be Conan the Barbarian or not play.

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Re: Education! (Split from Drawing Game)

Post by Lucifer »

sinewav wrote:
Bytes wrote:First off, there are many male targeted games where the hero is a muscular guy in skimpy clothes.
This is in line with the "I'm not racist I have black friends" argument, and it misses Z-Man's point. In those games there is probably only one choice. You can be Conan the Barbarian or not play.
Indeed, adding a scantily clad curvy no-nonsense woman as a possible avatar in those games would make perfect sense.

But in the zombie games where the men are wearing t-shirts and jeans or outright uniforms, but all the women are scantily clad unrealistically sexy objects? That's the problem right there.

And let's not forget the skills/super powers part. When there are women available, they're not given comparable skills to the male characters. It's a computer game, there's no need to intentionally make the female characters weak!
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Re: Education! (Split from Drawing Game)

Post by ConVicT »

Lucifer wrote: there's no need to intentionally make the female characters weak!
Despite the fact that men are just stronger by default, or are we just ignoring the facts as to not be sexist?

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Re: Education! (Split from Drawing Game)

Post by Clutch »

So everyone should be immediately penalized just for playing a female character, just becuase theyre physically weaker in real life? And even that isn't true in some cases
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Re: Education! (Split from Drawing Game)

Post by Light »

ConVicT wrote:Despite the fact that men are just stronger by default, or are we just ignoring the facts as to not be sexist?
That's not completely true. Men have advantages with strength, but it's not anywhere near all of either gender in that category.

Though, whether or not they are strong or weak in real life shouldn't matter. We're talking about fantasy. If you played characters with your actual abilities in-game, it would be pretty damn boring. You very likely don't have a perfectly ripped body, the ability to scale walls, jump from extremely high heights, etc. It's fantasy, and neither gender should be penalizied.

If you want to make certain characters have strengths and weaknesses, race covers that so much nicer in games. I'm not talking about caucasian, negroid, etc. but elven, human, dwarf, and many others. It's also a lot more creative and fun than just saying "women are weaker, men are stronger".

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Re: Education! (Split from Drawing Game)

Post by Lucifer »

ConVicT wrote:
Lucifer wrote: there's no need to intentionally make the female characters weak!
Despite the fact that men are just stronger by default, or are we just ignoring the facts as to not be sexist?
If video games are to reflect reality, any woman could kick your ass. As far as gender-specific traits go, women are physically faster and mentally more quick-witted than you, and that's a more deciding factor in a fight.
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Re: Education! (Split from Drawing Game)

Post by Light »

Lucifer wrote:If video games are to reflect reality, any woman could kick your ass. As far as gender-specific traits go, women are physically faster and mentally more quick-witted than you, and that's a more deciding factor in a fight.
I could only find evidence to the opposite. Looking it up, I find that men have advantages in strength, run faster and have a quicker reaction time. Of course this isn't all men over women, but averaged.

Could you link me to a source? Assuming you've looked it up. Sorry if it seems like I'm just poking holes, but you made me curious enough to look it up and I didn't find the same results.

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Re: Education! (Split from Drawing Game)

Post by Lucifer »

Light wrote:
Lucifer wrote:If video games are to reflect reality, any woman could kick your ass. As far as gender-specific traits go, women are physically faster and mentally more quick-witted than you, and that's a more deciding factor in a fight.
I could only find evidence to the opposite. Looking it up, I find that men have advantages in strength, run faster and have a quicker reaction time. Of course this isn't all men over women, but averaged.

Could you link me to a source? Assuming you've looked it up. Sorry if it seems like I'm just poking holes, but you made me curious enough to look it up and I didn't find the same results.
Did that clear that up for you? Moreover, women are better multitaskers, which means one woman could kick 200 ConVicT asses without assistance.
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Re: Education! (Split from Drawing Game)

Post by Light »

Lucifer wrote:Did that clear that up for you? Moreover, women are better multitaskers, which means one woman could kick 200 ConVicT asses without assistance.
Gotcha ;) lol

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