Education! (Split from Drawing Game)

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Z-Man
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Re: Education! (Split from Drawing Game)

Post by Z-Man »

Light wrote:
Phytotron wrote:You two just need to stop.
Can you actually explain what I've done wrong here?
The thing you need to know about Phytotron is that if you are 80% correct, 10% unclear and 10% mininformed/wrong, the important thing to him is that you are 20% incorrect. And if you have been once, you always will be. And if you learn something new, how could you not have known before? Maybe he doesn't think that way, I don't know; I like to think he mentally acknowledges the bits where you are right and just does not show it because agreeing is a waste of precious bits.
ConVicT wrote: ...some of them [my posts] were immensely stupid but that's just cuz I was getting tired of saying the same thing over and over, so, thought I'd throw a few curve balls!
Don't be a Judas :P The whole point (even when I was sidetracking and shit, is still the same point) IT IS ACCEPTED IN GAMING!!!!
Repetition does not make you right.

And Lucifer is right: the problem with the stereotypical presentation of both women and men in games, when it happens, is not that it is fantasy, it is that is a specifically male fantasy. And the real problem to me is not that it happens, the problem is that when you point it out and that maybe the state of affairs is not very desirable for many female gamers, the baboons immediately climb down from their rock and claim you are "pushing a feminist agenda" and "want to censor our games" and, well, uglier words. And poo, probably. No, stupid. Nobody wants to take away your toys. It's about asking for diversity. There is nothing wrong with blonde, long haired, big breasted white women wearing outfits that can't possibly be considered practical for the job*, or games with ruggedly handsome or invisible mute male protagonists, but it must be allowed to ask for something else as well, a little more often. New Lara Croft seems to be a step in the right direction.

* Umm, now that I say it that way, there is a lot wrong, but anyway, no reason it must not exist.

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Re: Education! (Split from Drawing Game)

Post by Light »

Z-Man wrote:And Lucifer is right: the problem with the stereotypical presentation of both women and men in games, when it happens, is not that it is fantasy, it is that is a specifically male fantasy. And the real problem to me is not that it happens, the problem is that when you point it out and that maybe the state of affairs is not very desirable for many female gamers, the baboons immediately climb down from their rock and claim you are "pushing a feminist agenda" and "want to censor our games" and, well, uglier words. And poo, probably. No, stupid. Nobody wants to take away your toys. It's about asking for diversity. There is nothing wrong with blonde, long haired, big breasted white women wearing outfits that can't possibly be considered practical for the job*, or games with ruggedly handsome or invisible mute male protagonists, but it must be allowed to ask for something else as well, a little more often. New Lara Croft seems to be a step in the right direction.
Well, I mostly agree but I find it hard to see from a "woman's point of view". It would be nice if they would make them for both men and women, but I think they're still stuck in the "women don't play games" kind of thing. Kind'a like "women don't watch porn", yet now there are companies that dedicate themselves to porn for women instead of gearing it towards men. Maybe it will happen in gaming some time as well? I think that would be a nice step.

I don't see how Lara Croft is really geared towards women more though, other than having a main character be a woman. She would fit in with them thin, big breasted women showing off quite a bit of cleavage. I think the older games it was covered up a lot more though.

But as far as them replies went when it came to simply stating there were no women protagonists. That's pretty f'd up. I wouldn't have thought it would be that bad. I've known quite a few women gamers, and I don't see how they're any different than male gamers. I don't see why we shouldn't have games geared towards them as well.

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Re: Education! (Split from Drawing Game)

Post by Word »

Just thought this is related, because it gives you an impression of what's going on:
http://forum.unity3d.com/threads/177444-Games-for-Women

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Re: Education! (Split from Drawing Game)

Post by Light »

Word wrote:Just thought this is related, because it gives you an impression of what's going on:
http://forum.unity3d.com/threads/177444-Games-for-Women
It would be nice if they could come up with a realistic way to poll what people like. Find out what a majority of people are more interested in, and make games based on that. If we could see where women really stand on the subject, they could likely start profiting more by appealing to both sexes.

I'm not saying we should stop games with pure killing, or that have attractive women in them, but to also have the games that would appeal to most women, and I'm sure there would be a mix of them, which could turn out well.

If that thread was correct in saying women like games more often when they're about problem solving than pure killing, I would like to see it happen for my own interests too. If you actually had to figure things out, I would find it a lot more fun.

Again, if it's true .. Would Penumbra fall under a game that would grab the interest of women more? I know it's horror, so you get what comes along with that, but most of the game is problem solving. And on that note, would it make a difference if the main character were a woman there, or would it go against by putting her in that kind of scenario?

And would this mean games like Fatal Frame (Project Zero) were made for women? I could really do with some new ones .. :P

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Re: Education! (Split from Drawing Game)

Post by Phytotron »

ConVicT wrote:all of the conformists here.
Yeah, your troglodytism, regurgitation of archaic prejudices, and repetition of internet newspeak is pure rebellion.
*Lazy C**t.
Seriously? Are you just trolling or are you genuinely so completely unaware of your ongoing misogyny?
ConVicT wrote:it's you that thinks everything is rosey
What planet are you living on? Is your reading comprehension really that terrible?

Light wrote:If you wanted to get a point across, it would do more to actually explain.... Simply attacking does nothing....
We tried for several pages, but as is typical with you kids, not only doesn't it get through your thick skulls, but you continue to dig your holes deeper, making yourselves look even worse. At that point, I tell you what you are. Go back and read. Everything has citations. Facts. It's your own fault that you've refused to read or consider any of that which threatens your comfortable male privilege. Instead, all you've delivered is knee-jerk reaction and repetition of your prejudices. I get harsher as these "conversations" go on because people like you need to be shook out of it, and nothing else seems to be working to that point.
Light wrote:I find it hard to see from a "woman's point of view".
Seems to me this thread has demonstrated your refusal to try.
It would be nice if they would make them for both men and women, but I think they're still stuck in the "women don't play games" kind of thing.
"They" being the industry that is 80% men, facing a consumer base that is already 50% women. Easy way to fix that, but it would involve opening up the boys club and losing the institutionalized sexism and misogyny.
Kind'a like "women don't watch porn", yet now there are companies that dedicate themselves to porn for women instead of gearing it towards men.
Funny how the first analogy you went to was that one.
I've known quite a few women gamers, and I don't see how they're any different than male gamers. I don't see why we shouldn't have games geared towards them as well.
First you say "they're no different," but in the next statement you posit that female gamers require a separate and distinct genre of games "geared toward them." How about just losing the aforementioned institutionalized sexism and misogyny?

Z-Man wrote:New Lara Croft seems to be a step in the right direction.
While the blatant objectification may have finally been (mostly) done away with, and it even passes the Bechdel Test, there appear to be a couple problematic issues with this one, too. Agency, for one.

Word wrote:Just thought this is related, because it gives you an impression of what's going on:
http://forum.unity3d.com/threads/177444-Games-for-Women
I stopped reading at "Hi, I am a male...." followed by "You might be interested to check out a book such as 'men are from mars, women are from venus'." Polling men about what women want.

Hell, I could have stopped reading at the very title: "Games for Women." Inherent in that title and his question is the presumption that the current state of the industry is that most games are just "neutral" and there need to be special games made just for girls and women, who are only interested in a certain type(s) of "girly games." He wants to know what those "girly games" are.

No. What we need are games for people. The current situation is not one of neutrality; the male is not the default gender. Patriarchy is no more neutral than white supremacy. Make good games of any type that aren't offensive to and oppressive of women, and women will play them. Yes, there are several aspects of life that, in story-telling, will be more relatable to women—something completely missing in gaming and to a large extent in popular culture/entertainment in general. But just start with losing the massive sexist imbalance.

Light wrote:It would be nice if they could come up with a realistic way to poll what people like.
Here's a weird idea: Ask women. Hire women. Stop believing that those with a penis are the default or superior gender.

And, again, to you, this idea of "games for women"—you apparently fail to grasp the fact that
most games (and popular culture in general) are not just neutral; they're geared toward troglodytic, adolescent males and negatively against women. You're continuing with this notion that special considerations need to be made for some exotic "womenfolk interests." They're from Venus, after all ( :roll: ). No, begin just by ridding it of the male privilege, sexism, misogyny. Give women agency. Recognize that they are full, complete, complex, independent humans. That they're not monolithic. That they can have roles in games and REAL LIFE that don't involve being one-dimensional sex objects, decoration, servile, victims or damsels in need of rescuing.

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Re: Education! (Split from Drawing Game)

Post by Lucifer »

Light wrote:
Word wrote:Just thought this is related, because it gives you an impression of what's going on:
http://forum.unity3d.com/threads/177444-Games-for-Women
It would be nice if they could come up with a realistic way to poll what people like. Find out what a majority of people are more interested in, and make games based on that. If we could see where women really stand on the subject, they could likely start profiting more by appealing to both sexes.
Many women like the games that are out and simply want an avatar they can play with.

Here's a clue: women like many of the same things men do. Women respond to porn faster and with greater magnitude, and more secretly watch it than not. Women also masturbate as much as men do, they just don't talk about it.

This idea of a woman being pure and virginal is bunk. No woman is like that. They have carnal lusts, they enjoy simulated shooting sprees, they love dominating an entire civilization.

Hell, while we're at it, there's a solid minority of men that play Sorority Life. I'd still be playing if I hadn't gotten sick of the grind.

It's this strange stereotype of women that needs to just disappear. It's not true, and never has been. Women want casual sex as much as men do, I mean, the list goes on. Women and men can be very different, but they're not different species!

As for a woman's point of view, I'll tell you straight out women aren't necessarily after believable female avatars any more than men are. They want avatars they can play that make them feel badass, pretty, sexy, and smart all at the same time (much like what men already have). Believable still isn't the issue, the issue is that the few women that appear in games are either old ladies or "hot sluts" that appeal solely to stereotypical men's fantasies.

Women, as a demographic, are sick of being completely objectified. THAT is what turns them off of Tomb Raider. They have needs and they want them satisfied, and gaming companies are stupid for ignoring half of the population's needs in their game designs.

Bill Gates famously said something to the effect that Saudi Arabia can't realize their fullest potential when they ignore half of their available talent. Let's see him translate that into XBox money.
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Re: Education! (Split from Drawing Game)

Post by Light »

Lucifer wrote:
Light wrote:
Word wrote:Just thought this is related, because it gives you an impression of what's going on:
http://forum.unity3d.com/threads/177444-Games-for-Women
It would be nice if they could come up with a realistic way to poll what people like. Find out what a majority of people are more interested in, and make games based on that. If we could see where women really stand on the subject, they could likely start profiting more by appealing to both sexes.
Many women like the games that are out and simply want an avatar they can play with.

Here's a clue: women like many of the same things men do. Women respond to porn faster and with greater magnitude, and more secretly watch it than not. Women also masturbate as much as men do, they just don't talk about it.

This idea of a woman being pure and virginal is bunk. No woman is like that. They have carnal lusts, they enjoy simulated shooting sprees, they love dominating an entire civilization.

Hell, while we're at it, there's a solid minority of men that play Sorority Life. I'd still be playing if I hadn't gotten sick of the grind.

It's this strange stereotype of women that needs to just disappear. It's not true, and never has been. Women want casual sex as much as men do, I mean, the list goes on. Women and men can be very different, but they're not different species!

As for a woman's point of view, I'll tell you straight out women aren't necessarily after believable female avatars any more than men are. They want avatars they can play that make them feel badass, pretty, sexy, and smart all at the same time (much like what men already have). Believable still isn't the issue, the issue is that the few women that appear in games are either old ladies or "hot sluts" that appeal solely to stereotypical men's fantasies.

Women, as a demographic, are sick of being completely objectified. THAT is what turns them off of Tomb Raider. They have needs and they want them satisfied, and gaming companies are stupid for ignoring half of the population's needs in their game designs.

Bill Gates famously said something to the effect that Saudi Arabia can't realize their fullest potential when they ignore half of their available talent. Let's see him translate that into XBox money.
It makes sense. I've also seen a lot in gaming where the men in games would be all big and ready to jump into danger, and women more of the scared ones. I think it's a bunch of bs.

I don't really see why there aren't more female main characters. I wasn't really trying to get across that games should be made specifically for women, and others for men, but that they should try to find what would be appealing and make what both sexes would be into. As far as having characters they could relate to a bit more and get that "rush" of being all powerful and whatnot, I agree with you that there should be more for them.

I don't think it would make it any worse for guys playing it either. It does seem like they just ignore what could be a big jump in growing an audience for games and making more money. Idk .. And when it comes to having characters like that, it really doesn't take much for them to add choices, so I find it hard to understand why they wouldn't give an option of which sex you'd rather play as. At least a percentage of them. I know some games' storylines are bound to a certain character, but for many it wouldn't matter.

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Re: Education! (Split from Drawing Game)

Post by ConVicT »

Phytotron wrote:Seriously? Are you just trolling or are you genuinely so completely unaware of your ongoing misogyny?
See, here (to me) is another instance of a word meaning to different things.
What it I had said "Lazy D**k" instead, would that make me a misandrist?
Before you even start, the answer is no!

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Re: Education! (Split from Drawing Game)

Post by Lucifer »

ConVicT wrote:
Phytotron wrote:Seriously? Are you just trolling or are you genuinely so completely unaware of your ongoing misogyny?
See, here (to me) is another instance of a word meaning to different things.
To which different things are you referring? (Protip: If you want to equivocate, make sure your grammar is ******* perfect)
What it I had said "Lazy D**k" instead, would that make me a misandrist?
Before you even start, the answer is no!
The answer is yes. There's nothing wrong with penises, and comparing someone to a penis is just dumb. You spend your entire life trying to satisfy your penis, and then you use it as a pejorative? Does that make sense?
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Re: Education! (Split from Drawing Game)

Post by Phytotron »

Rare early morning post!

Lucifer wrote:
What it I had said "Lazy D**k" instead, would that make me a misandrist?
Before you even start, the answer is no!
The answer is yes.
I disagree with this thoroughly. No, it would not be misandry.

Why? Male privilege. We're not on equal grounds. It's not a level playing field where all slights are of equal power. Men already have the power balanced in favor of them, just as white people do, just by virtue of existence. Just as a white person cannot be the victim of racism, a man cannot be the victim of sexism in our society. Discrimination, sure, rarely, but not sexism. Racism, sexism/misogyny, patriarchy—these aren't just beliefs, they are systems, sociocultural and sometimes legal institutions.

"D!ck" doesn't carry the baggage with it that "c^nt," et al do—no extra sting—nor does its usage have any sociocultural effects. Both when employed and received, it's no different than calling someone, or being called, a piece of shit: crude, yes, but just a generic vulgarity. It's male privilege that allows that to be the case.

Female-gendered vulgarities, on the other hand, carry all kinds of vile, hateful, demeaning and marginalizing, and historical baggage with them, just as racist or homophobic epithets do. And their usage does create a feedback loop with society and culture, both when directed at males or females, propping up the systems of sexism and misogyny.


In summary.

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Re: Education! (Split from Drawing Game)

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Phytotron wrote:Just as a white person cannot be the victim of racism, a man cannot be the victim of sexism in our society.
I see your point here, but disagree with this statement. Men are also victims of sexism, just as white people are victims of racism. Think about extremists, for example. They primarily target white persons, although their overall target is any person not conforming to their beliefs. Men are victimised in many different forms of workplace, just because they are the maller minority. There is never a balance, and there is never a truly one-sided argument here.

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Re: Education! (Split from Drawing Game)

Post by ConVicT »

Lucifer wrote:You spend your entire life trying to satisfy your penis
Nah, since iv'e been old enough iv'e had people do that for me, so not really.
Phytotron wrote: Some stuff, read it ^^
So what you're saying is woman fight for equality, but don't really want it?
They say that word themselves, so don't give me that lol, and yes it probably is one of the worst words to say.

Woman and children first (not gonna argue the children part)
"You know what Jim, screw equality, i'm outa here!"
Not saying it's my view of that cuz i would definitely risk my life to let a woman go first, but there are some wimpy people who would rage that they are picking and choosing when they want equality.

They even complain if you hold a door open for them, how's that sexist? I'm not saying *This door is too heavy for you cuz you're a woman* It's called manners, I do it with guys too, if i happen to be closer to the door.
Last edited by ConVicT on Thu Jun 13, 2013 2:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Education! (Split from Drawing Game)

Post by Z-Man »

delinquent wrote:Think about extremists, for example. They primarily target white persons, although their overall target is any person not conforming to their beliefs.
Wrong. The majority of religious extremist terror happens in Africa and the Middle East (at least one bomb a week over the last years), targets are the people who live there. And if I am not totally misinformed, they are not predominately considered white.
delinquent wrote:Men are victimised in many different forms of workplace, just because they are the maller minority.
Such as? And by whom?

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Re: Education! (Split from Drawing Game)

Post by ConVicT »

Well.. http://antimisandry.com/discrimination/ ... 14177.html

But my guess is it's happened to him, just by the sounds of it.

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Re: Education! (Split from Drawing Game)

Post by Bytes »

At the moment gaming is geared towards male gamers hence that is where it sells most. I find it silly and unrealistic that feminist gamers would call for these games to be somehow gender neutral. You're just making games less enjoyable for one subset of people without making them as appealing as they could be to the other.
Companies should be making specifically female games as defined by talking with female gamers, not because I want the gaming community segregated but because that would be what they wanted to play.
The preferences of male and female gamers may overlap, but if there are too many conflicts of desire then trying to force them into one game makes little sense.

Sometimes it strikes me that feminists are being childishly impetuous when they have the attitude they seem to have with say porn where at the end of the day the argument seemed to boil down to 'well we don't have it, so why should they'. The answer clearly wasn't to ban porn for males but, as has eventually happened, to make it available to women as well. This is a win-win situation for everyone, consumers and companies.
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