What does the ideal team/clan look like?

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Phytotron
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Re: What does the ideal team/clan look like?

Post by Phytotron »

Figure I should include quotes because of the page break, but too many quotes. Erm....
RoterBaron1337 wrote:i dont hate liz, but she is the girlfriend who takes away your best friend and makes him to a douchebag out of nowhere, hope u had fun reading..
sinewav wrote:Newsflash! If your friend turns into a douche-bag after he dates a girl, he was actually a douche-bag before too. You just didn't notice because you were in love with him.
Phytotron wrote:I'll go a step further: L337Misogynist.
Goodygumdrops wrote::roll: Grudge against one person who happens to be female?
It's not that he directed a negative, resentful comment toward "one person who happens to be female" that makes it misogynistic. It's that he regurgitated a misogynistic archetype. It's along the same lines as this.

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Re: What does the ideal team/clan look like?

Post by Goodygumdrops »

Phytotron wrote: It's along the same lines as this.
Yep, totally. You love white-knighting for feminism.
The once and future "I told you so."

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Lucifer
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Re: What does the ideal team/clan look like?

Post by Lucifer »

sinewav wrote:"Who makes decisions, and how?"
  • I am a big fan of leaderless teams. This is not because I believe in some self-organizing ideal, but because a team without a leader is more fluid. The active players tend to be the bigger contributors and generally give the team momentum. In Armagetron, leaders are often replaced as much as players and some are downright bad for their team's image. However, it is nice to have someone take the reigns once in a while, but in a thriving, active team this is rarely needed anyway.
I'm going to disagree with this. I think a strong leader is essential to a clan being flexible. You know, someone who can make reasonably good decisions on the fly and set a solid, positive example for the team.
"How are you going to recruit people?"
  • I don't think there is any perfect way to do this. Teams need to constatly re-evaluate themselves and bring talent in (or remove dead weight) whenever necessary. This community is small enough that all recruitment rules will be bent in one way or another.
I think this depends entirely on your goal. The clans that require significant growth tend to implode every now and then. I think the best way to go for clans is to not worry about growth. When you see someone who fulfills the requirements of the clan, maybe make a recruitment attempt. For teams, you only recruit when you have an empty spot to fill. In general.
"How do you ensure they stay loyal?"
  • Be cool. You don't even have to be good and win games, just friendly. United Noobs of Armagetron was very active and they went years without winning a single tournament. But most of the players were fairly cool people and rarely caused trouble. The only way a team can survive and still be jerks is to have a massive roster that can handle mass departures when drama erupts.
Yep, set a good example by being yourself and people will stay loyal to you. If you have to ensure or enforce it, you're doing something wrong.
"How do you keep getting new recruits?"
  • Similar to above: be friendly. Of course, it helps to be active and be good. I would say these traits are most important in that order too: friendliness, activity, and talent. You can have a talented team with a bunch of jerks and it won't last very long.
Don't worry about it. Size doesn't matter nearly as much as quality.
"How many wars?"/"Who can organize them?"
  • Play all the time! I think if everyone on the team is organizing meets then it works out best. Makes it clear who is the most enthusiastic.
Just quit calling them wars unless you intend to assemble a war crimes tribunal afterwards.
"Does regular 'training' chat really improve anything?"
Yeah, what is this?
"If you have training, is it mandatory?"
  • I would say yes. If the team isn't sharing their experiences and helping each other grow, then why be on a team? Of course, some clans don't care about performance. Those clans probably wouldn't have any training program at all.
I would say that if someone doesn't show up for practices, you boot them. Joining a team/clan is a commitment, or should be, and if you don't meet that commitment, you're gone.
"How do you decide who can play in a tournament and who can't?"
  • This is the hardest thing about being part of a team. It's one of the few places where actual leadership helps. Internal ladders are one way (Crazy Tronners) and basing playing privileges on recent activity is another. This is probably the most interesting part of the discussion. We could have a whole thread about it.
Again, it depends on your concept about the clan/team. For teams, the people who play are the people who joined, because that's why they joined and your recruitment/training process should have filtered out people who weren't good enough for your team. Or your team is a social team that plays together for fun, in which case everybody plays in the tournament because it's fun.

For clans, it depends on the size of the clan, the core ideals embodied, etc. Depends. If you're big enough to have a fortress wing, then maybe everybody in it gets to play. Maybe it's a fortress clan with 20 people, and you only field one team so you have your own internal playoffs to determine who's on the team, or the leader picks.
"Should forum activity be mandatory?"
  • Maybe. I guess it depends how important that tool is to the team. Some teams do almost all their communication through IRC/IM tools. Others spend so much time chatting in-game there is no need for a forum.
Try to avoid mandatory behavior, but we willing to boot somebody for not meeting their commitment.
"It's obvious that your sanctions are limited and can easily lead to a valuable member's departure. Is there another way aside from trusting your gut feeling?"
  • You don't want to get into micro-management. Ultimately, team come together in the friendly spirit of the game. If something disrupts that, your gut feeling is usually enough.
You should all be friends, first. So forgiveness instead of sanctions, and boot when the commitment is obviously not being made.
"Should ladle teams have a 'strategist' in spectator mode who gives everyone tips during the game?"
  • The team should do whatever it takes to win, as long as it stays within the bounds of good sportsmanship. Sometimes is is really great to have someone who isn't playing help keep the team focused when things get emotional (like when we start yelling at each other).
My personal style is "no". The coach should be playing. Think of it more like a quarterback who has to call the plays. *I* sure in the hell don't want someone who's not even playing to tell me how to play. However, if someone in spectator mode gets to see things I should know about (like spotting a weakness in how the other team is setting up their defense), I could see some value in it. I wouldn't be willing to sacrifice a player slot for it, however, because I think my team could still spot it.
GoodyWhateverTheFuckHisNameIs wrote: Yep, totally. You love white-knighting for feminism.
You make it sound like it's wrong to stand up for women. Statements like that make it even harder for other men to stand up for women. Who wants to be seen as the pussy boy who likes women? Well, you know, besides homophobic jerks that tend to also be quite sexist. Admit it, you're jealous he's willing to take that stand. And your favorite song is by Fun, because you don't know what you stand for.
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Ratchet
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Re: What does the ideal team/clan look like?

Post by Ratchet »

Lucifer wrote:
GoodyWhateverTheFuckHisNameIs wrote: Yep, totally. You love white-knighting for feminism.
Sorry for spam, but - I lol'd
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Live as if you'll die today." -James Dean

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Re: What does the ideal team/clan look like?

Post by Goodygumdrops »

I suppose anytime anyone says something negative about a person who is female/black/jewish/whatever we should point out that this type of talk is oppressive and hurtful to society. You're lucky I'm a white male, Lucifer, or else your comments about me would be indicative of "the man" keeping me down.
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Re: What does the ideal team/clan look like?

Post by Z-Man »

Ah, you misunderstood. Lucifer and Phytotron are not criticizing you for saying something bad about Liz. How could they? It's the "That kind of woman" part. See, by building that sentence, you imply that you think "that kind of woman" is a category worth mentioning, so you imply that there are a lot of "that kind of women", like it is something typical. That there are many women out there changing the character of men for the worse.

Compare those two hypothetical sentences:
A) Liz is bad at math.
B) Liz is one of those women who are bad at math.
A) is a perfectly regular statement, may be true, may not be true. B) is not. Whether it is true or not, you reinforce the stereotype that women are often bad at math. So: bad statement. Please avoid.

Also, consider
C) Liz is not one of those women who are bad at math.
Equally bad as B), even though it does not insult Liz at all!

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Re: What does the ideal team/clan look like?

Post by sinewav »

I love Z-Man. You should all know that.

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Bytes
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Re: What does the ideal team/clan look like?

Post by Bytes »

Z-man is one of those men you can love. <- Is this ok?
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Lucifer
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Re: What does the ideal team/clan look like?

Post by Lucifer »

Z-Man wrote:Ah, you misunderstood. Lucifer and Phytotron are not criticizing you for saying something bad about Liz. How could they? It's the "That kind of woman" part. See, by building that sentence, you imply that you think "that kind of woman" is a category worth mentioning, so you imply that there are a lot of "that kind of women", like it is something typical. That there are many women out there changing the character of men for the worse.

Compare those two hypothetical sentences:
A) Liz is bad at math.
B) Liz is one of those women who are bad at math.
A) is a perfectly regular statement, may be true, may not be true. B) is not. Whether it is true or not, you reinforce the stereotype that women are often bad at math. So: bad statement. Please avoid.

Also, consider
C) Liz is not one of those women who are bad at math.
Equally bad as B), even though it does not insult Liz at all!
Indeed. It's just like saying "I'm not a racist, but Obama is a ******." That person says he's not racist, but then makes a racist statement.

To make prejudices go away, one important step is to purge the prejudices from the language. It's not the cure for all prejudice, mind you, but no cure is complete without it. So if you said "Liz is a self-serving heartless and cruel person who deserts her friends every time she has a boyfriend", there is absolutely no sexism in that statement. And it's exactly what you meant.

See the difference?
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Re: What does the ideal team/clan look like?

Post by Vogue »

check your privilege you filthy white cis scum

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Re: What does the ideal team/clan look like?

Post by Gazelle »

Vogue wrote:check your privilege you filthy white cis scum
Omgawdd go back to league of legends.

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Re: What does the ideal team/clan look like?

Post by Renegade »

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Re: What does the ideal team/clan look like?

Post by TaZ »

Lucifer wrote:And your favorite song is by Fun, because you don't know what you stand for.
LOL! I lost it xD

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