The worst things that have ever been written

[þsy]

Atheists, broadly speaking, don't believe in the existence of God or some higher being (correct me if I'm wrong...)

So if God came to Earth as an atheist, he would no longer believe in his existence as God, but would believe himself to an ordinary human being. If this were to happen, his name would probably be þsy

If you're trying to draw a modern day example of God-on-Earth that surprised people the way Jesus surprised the Jews, then that's fair enough. I could imagine him/(her?) being anti-Christianity perhaps, but very pro-God. I think being an atheist is a bit of a stretch

[Light]

If Jesus were an atheist, that would mean he didn't believe in himself.

So atheists don't believe in themselves?

I don't see an automatic contradiction there. And you seemed to have glossed over my reasoning.

According to some biblical philosophers, Jesus and God are the same "person". So, if Jesus were to exist, and be aware of his own existence, then he couldn't be an atheist. If he were, he would not believe he is a god, and he wouldn't believe any gods exist.

You tried to twist his words, but failed to do so. That's like a Christian saying that Zeus doesn't exist, so we jump to the conclusion that Christians don't believe in a god.

[Word]

According to some biblical philosophers

Actually that is Catholic mainstream.

[Jonathan]

According to some biblical philosophers, Jesus and God are the same "person". So, if Jesus were to exist, and be aware of his own existence, then he couldn't be an atheist. If he were, he would not believe he is a god, and he wouldn't believe any gods exist.

That's assuming it's all true. If you question the veracity and take Jesus to be 'only' a semi-enlightened person, it makes sense.

[compguygene]

Just to expound the position held by a significant majority of Christians, but not all, about the divinity and personhood of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, I would like to state that this all goes back to the fundamental Doctrine of the Trinity. That is that God exists as one being expressed as 3 persons, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. In that man is created in His image, we exist as Body, Soul, and Spirit. As such, from a Christian's perspective, for Jesus to claim to be an Atheist would be for Jesus to defy his very existence and personhood. That is not to say that were he to appear today that he wouldn't have a ton of thing to say that the Church at large is just doing wrong, he certainly would! It is not hard among mainline Christianity to see who are the modern day equivalent of the Sadducees and Pharisees. I could spend another six to ten pages on that topic alone!

[Phytotron]

Oy, you people—the ones quoting and replying to me and going off that—are ridiculous. Apparently sinewav is the only one who got my corny joke. Let me break this down.

My first reply to Lucifer was not to the actual question. It was just to the idea of Jesus being an atheist. Atheists don't believe in a god. Jesus was a god. Therefore, if Jesus was an atheist, it would mean he didn't believe in himself. How does one describe a person who doesn't believe in himself? Low self-esteem. Wocka wocka wocka!

[Word]

Apparently sinewav is the only one who got my corny joke.

I got it too, but wanted to let Lucifer deconstruct it

[Titanoboa]

I thought it was fairly obvious

[Lucifer]

Sorry Phyto. My excuse is that I was drunk.

But I'm enjoying all this extra discusion.

Ok, first off, atheists don't disbelieve in God, in general (Douglas Adams coined the term "antitheist" for that one). God may be an atheist quite easily by simply believing there is no higher power than himself. The literal word of the bible actually puts it that way, so, yeah, God is an atheist in that sense.

As to the rest of the bible, if the God entity exists, it makes perfect sense that the primitive people that wrote the bible would have completely screwed up the accounts. Just go back to first grade when your teacher lined everybody up and showed how bad gossip gets screwed up and why you can't trust the grapevine. Guess what! That applies to the Bible as well!

Regardless of your beliefs, there is absolutely no practical way the bible can be the literal word of God and still have so few cameos of him over the course of the years it covers.

So if Jesus showed up and is an atheist in the sense that he doesn't believe the God depicted in the bible exists, it will be because he KNOWS IT FOR A FACT. Same Jesus, same attempt to reform the church after they got it wrong the first time, comes back as promised to make things right again, and turns out to be an atheist.

What would the repercussions of such a thing be?

[Jonathan]

But I'm enjoying all this extra discusion [sic].

This. I did get the joke. Why would that preclude tangential discussions?

So if Jesus showed up and is an atheist in the sense that he doesn't believe the God depicted in the bible exists, it will be because he KNOWS IT FOR A FACT. Same Jesus, same attempt to reform the church after they got it wrong the first time, comes back as promised to make things right again, and turns out to be an atheist.

How would Jesus know for a fact? Gods could have another layer of supergods above them, making gods believe they are on top when they are not. Said supergods can then subject gods below them to elaborate knowledge-inversion pranks. There could even be gods all the way up, although the implications make my head spin.

See? I can go off on a tangent, too.

[compguygene]

Ok, if we are gonna have this debate, we need to define the words we are using. According to Merriam-Webster's Dictionary:

Definition of ATHEIST: one who believes that there is no deity

So, according to what is generally recognized as an authority on the proper definitions of the words in the English language an Atheist is one who simply believes there is no deity. I would like to point out that saying the definition of an Atheist as being one who believes there is no greater power than oneself is not the same thing. This becomes especially true in the case that Lucifer is presenting here in attempting to define Jesus Christ of Nazareth as a potential atheist. We can simply take apart the word to prove this. A theist is a person that believes that in the existence of a deity. The letter "a" appended to the beginning of a word is always interpreted as meaning "not" as from the Latin. Therefore the word "Atheist" would break down as meaning "Not theist" or someone that does not believe in the existence of a deity.
So, unless you are prepared to re-define the meaning of the word atheist, what I stated about Jesus stands. Your position, Lucifer, is rather illogical.

[sinewav]

No, it could be that the Lord has not yet revealed himself to Jesus, but sent him to do his work anyway. There is even debate of whether Jesus in the bible had full knowledge of himself as God from birth or if it was revealed gradually. And unfortunately for you gene, you can't prove God didn't send Jesus II as an atheist logically because there is no logic in the bible. It is a work of fiction riddled with contradictions.

[compguygene]

Well, it's been amusing to debate something that started as a joke. Yes, it was obvious to me too. But, I just couldn't help myself. Sine, we again have reached a mutual point of disagreement. No problem. I can respect your viewpoint of the Bible as fiction and nothing else. I don't agree, obviously. But, I have no need or desire to attempt to prove something that I have stated oftentimes before is only accepted ultimately on faith. I know that in your's and other's eyes that merely confirms the correctness of your position. Again, no problem. Neither of us is going to convince the other.

[Word]

it could be that the Lord has not yet revealed himself to Jesus

That's shown when he forgives Judas and has doubts in his mission after he learns that he has to sacrifice himself - he prays to his father.

[Titanoboa]

it could be that the Lord has not yet revealed himself to Jesus

That's shown when he forgives Judas and has doubts in his mission after he learns that he has to sacrifice himself - he prays to his father.

If we're going to use the new testament as a source here, there's plenty of passages that suggest that the father has revealed himself to Jesus. Here's a few

Matthew 11:27 All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
John 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.
John 5:19 Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. [20] For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does.
John 6:46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.
John 10:15a just as the Father knows me and I know the Father
John 12:49 For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken.
John 14:11a Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me.
John 16:28 I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father.