The worst things that have ever been written

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Jonathan
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Re: The worst things that have ever been written

Post by Jonathan »

Word wrote:you don't see the inanity of blaming religion for someone's crimes, that's why I chose to use such an example.
Exactly. How do you equate Dawkins with religion? Name attributes of religion that cause such things to happen, that are shared by Dawkins.

Also, yes, religion should take some of the blame when it coerces its followers.
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Re: The worst things that have ever been written

Post by Word »

You miss the point, I'm not accusing Dawkins of causing crimes, but I question whether people in 2000 years or more/less still understand him the way we do - there's something called the Internet now so they probably will, especially thanks to discussions like this one. But what would they do if they were unable to comprehend stylistic devices we take for granted, such as irony and sarcasm? Could they adapt Social Darwinism as a common way of life because they don't get that it isn't some kind of economic philosophy to be applied to humanity? I still think you're too short-sighted here.
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Re: The worst things that have ever been written

Post by Lucifer »

Word wrote: Did I say one already justifies God by reading the bible the way it was intended to be read? You're just assuming it's that easy, no evidence whatsoever. A lot of the "wild system of metaphors and allegories" was already present during early Roman and Greek times (concerning the New Testament), and we simply don't know for certain how much of it was used in the Old Testament. However, a lot of stylistic, symbolic and rhetoric motives appear in non-religious literature of that time as well as earlier periods, so that claim is just baseless, and scientifically incorrect. There are entire books about this. To use Phytotron's example, you have to know the length of the unicorn's horn and the fashion of the fairies and what they symbolize so they're less mysterious.
You're assuming that I'm assuming it's that easy. Unlike you, I have read it from both a staunch Christian point of view, and then later as an atheist. In fact, it was reading it as a staunch Christian that turned me off to it. I shouldn't have to make excuses to explain the abusive behavior of someone I love. When you find yourself doing that, you LEAVE the relationship. God is not immune to that.

As for stylistic differences, I've read translations of Oepidus and Antigone, The Iliad, the Odyssey (I read the entire translation of the Odyssey), Beowulf, and a smattering of other ancient texts besides the bible. They are, for the most part, quite beautiful and breathtaking works. They do not require a cultural context to understand the main points, but having a cultural context certainly helps bring out the subtleties that are embedded within the works. That's why they're considered timeless works: because you don't have to have a cultural context that is contemporary with the author's culture in order to get the main points and feel the tragedies presented.

By way of comparison, the bible just falls short. And before you assume I've only read the KJV, the last time I went through it I used Asimov's annotated bible, so I also had the benefit of Asimov's extensive research and notes as well as FOUR DIFFERENT TRANSLATIONS to aid my reading.

In the future, Word, don't forget that many of us old geezers around here are much better-read than you, and always will be, so you have to quit acting like we're speaking from positions of ignorance. We DO know what we're talking about. In the US, you don't just quit the church because you're a naive, spoiled brat. Nobody willingly walks into the kind of discrimination atheists face here, just like nobody chooses to be gay or trans or what-have-you. It takes strength of conviction and the kind of understanding that only comes with knowledge and experience to walk away from the church in the US.
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Re: The worst things that have ever been written

Post by þsy »

Word wrote:
psy wrote:Whilst I totally disagree with the argument that you can only read biblical text in its original language
I haven't made said argument, in case that was directed at me. I'd just say that translations should probably be better and offer more commentary.
It wasn't >_>

I think you're digging yourself a hole bigger than you usually do here. Think of the hours of writing and responding that you'll put into this, and get very little satisfaction out of (I'm not antagonising you here!)
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Re: The worst things that have ever been written

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Lucifer wrote:Nobody willingly walks into the kind of discrimination atheists face here... [...] It takes strength of conviction and the kind of understanding that only comes with knowledge and experience to walk away from the church in the US.
That's very interesting, it's pretty much the other way around where I live. Sure Sweden is a christian country on paper (iirc 65% are members of the Swedish Church) and we've got a cross in our flag and everything, but in reality it's one of the most secular places on earth. Question: have you been persecuted by christians for being atheist?
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Re: The worst things that have ever been written

Post by Word »

In the future, Word, don't forget that many of us old geezers around here are much better-read than you, and always will be, so you have to quit acting like we're speaking from positions of ignorance.
Not what I'm thinking, and I don't underestimate that it's difficult, or pretend to have read more than any of you. I'm just stating that even if you had read 100 translations of the bible, one still has to interprete it carefully, because these translations still don't tell you the whole story. As you correctly said:
having a cultural context certainly helps bring out the subtleties that are embedded within the works
I've read those tragedies but I don't know as much about them as about comedies, so I'll use Aristophanes and Plautus as another example...
The humour of Aristophanes' works derives from many things, and sometimes he's predictable, or just crude and sexist (even if Lysistrata is popular among feminists), or parodies certain politicians. There is lots of dialogue where you can tell that this is supposed to be funny, but you don't get the joke because you have no clue what its theme is, or what kind of politician is referenced. For a long time, Plautus had a reputation of being an author for common people, because his plays seemed to be about Greek everyday life (he was Roman, but he copied a lot from the Greeks), the typical, patriarchic family etc. - but this is changing now because there's lots of evidence for many references to the Roman law system in his works. The bottom line is that such rather obscure connections and details do matter and it's difficult to accuse someone of apophenia when we want to apply the same criteria to the bible.
That's why they're considered timeless works: because you don't have to have a cultural context that is contemporary with the author's culture in order to get the main points and feel the tragedies presented
I agree that these works are timeless. Still, one can't deny that some elements in them hint at the time and place where they were written, and things like the understanding of law that this culture had. I'm saying we should treat works of the past more carefully because we tend to think that we, in our time, are the only ones who truly understand them, and I would treat the Old Testament accordingly, because the story was at least 200 years old before Sophokles was born.
Titanoboa wrote:
Lucifer wrote:Nobody willingly walks into the kind of discrimination atheists face here... [...] It takes strength of conviction and the kind of understanding that only comes with knowledge and experience to walk away from the church in the US.
That's very interesting, it's pretty much the other way around where I live. Sure Sweden is a christian country on paper (iirc 65% are members of the Swedish Church) and we've got a cross in our flag and everything, but in reality it's one of the most secular places on earth. Question: have you been persecuted by christians for being atheist?
Over the past decades, more and more people left the church and nobody here really cares anymore if it happens again;local priests regularly criticize the Pope, and so do religion teachers. The last generation who visits the church every sunday is getting old and we're just waiting for them to finally close down the whole thing. I apologize if some of my remarks sound insensitive, but it isn't that easy either when you have the feeling that you're losing an important part of your identity. Still, I'm not hysterical or think my belief is "under attack".
(edited the typo)
Last edited by Word on Sat Jan 26, 2013 7:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The worst things that have ever been written

Post by Jonathan »

Titanoboa wrote:Sure Sweden is a christian country on paper (iirc 65% are members of the Swedish Church) and we've got a cross in our flag and everything, but in reality it's one of the most secular places on earth.
That's because until 1996, children were automatically entered if either parent was a member, and few bother to sign out. Actual attendance hovers around a few percent (2% regularly attends according to one source). Christian heritage would be more accurate.
Word wrote:
That's why they're considered timeless works: because you don't have to have a cultural context that is contemporary with the author's culture in order to get the main points and feel the tragedies presented
I agree that these works are timeless. Still, one can't deny that some elements in them hint at the time and place where they were written, and things like the understanding of law that this culture had. I'm saying we should treat works of the past more carefully because we tend to think that we, in our time, are the only ones who truly understand them, and I would treat the Old Testament accordingly, because the story was at least 200 years old before Sophokles was born.
That doesn't fundamentally change the work, certainly not all the way to the point you have in mind. You can't turn every maybe you can think of the way you want, and 'distort' more certain points in the process. That's making things up.
Word wrote:Over the past decades, more and more people left the church and nobody here really cares anymore if it happens again;local priests regularly criticize the Pope, and so do religion teachers. The last generation who visits the church every sunday is getting old and we're just waiting for them to finally close down the whole thing. I apologize if some of my remarks sound insensitive, but it isn't that easy either when you have the feeling that you're losing an important part of your identity. Still, I'm not hysterical or think my believe is "under attack".
As far as I'm concerned those that desire it can hold their beliefs, get together on Sunday, etc. Outside these debates you won't hear much from me, either. Just don't expect to be immune from criticism, or to be subsidized. If you don't confound your identity with that of others, you're perfectly fine.
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Re: The worst things that have ever been written

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I am honestly surprised that any of you would classify the Bible among the worst things that have ever been written. I have read much worse literature in my lifetime, and I likely wouldn't be considered "well-read" by many. Haven't any of you read the trash that makes the NY Times bestseller list? What about Stephen King's long drawn-out campfire stories? How about those old paperback porno novels from the 70's? Not that a guy like me would ever have seen such; after all, I must maintain my hypocrisy, (:wink: :wink: , nudge, nudge). The list of bad books is so great, I couldn't even begin. Who's to say what all has been written through the ages that didn't survive?

I still stand by my original statement
Kinda Slow wrote:Anything in my handwriting.
My penmanship is atrocious.
Sometimes, even I can't read it.
Here is likely the worst thing any of us have ever read.
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Re: The worst things that have ever been written

Post by sinewav »

Kinda Slow wrote:Haven't any of you read the trash that makes the NY Times bestseller list? What about Stephen King's long drawn-out campfire stories?
Right, but none of those things are used to justify discrimination, abuse, murder, and genocide on a massive scale. The Bible is in a whole different class of bad.
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Re: The worst things that have ever been written

Post by Kinda Slow »

sinewav wrote:
Kinda Slow wrote:Haven't any of you read the trash that makes the NY Times bestseller list? What about Stephen King's long drawn-out campfire stories?
Right, but none of those things are used to justify discrimination, abuse, murder, and genocide on a massive scale. The Bible is in a whole different class of bad.
I thought you were just talking literature, not how people have used the book. I got that impression from Lucifer's posts.
If we are going to class literature by its ill effects, we might need to include the likes of the Physician's Desk Reference and The Art of War.
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Re: The worst things that have ever been written

Post by Lucifer »

Titanoboa wrote:
Lucifer wrote:Nobody willingly walks into the kind of discrimination atheists face here... [...] It takes strength of conviction and the kind of understanding that only comes with knowledge and experience to walk away from the church in the US.
That's very interesting, it's pretty much the other way around where I live. Sure Sweden is a christian country on paper (iirc 65% are members of the Swedish Church) and we've got a cross in our flag and everything, but in reality it's one of the most secular places on earth. Question: have you been persecuted by christians for being atheist?
Depends on how you define "persecuted". I have been harassed, received death threats, numerous other kinds of threats (of course), not hired, not promoted, etc. Of the harassment, most of it was in high school, and none of it panned out into violence.

Then there's this, which you know won't pass, but is interesting to see what current legislatures are doing:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyat ... gh-school/
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Re: The worst things that have ever been written

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Lucifer wrote:I have been harassed, received death threats, numerous other kinds of threats (of course), not hired, not promoted, etc.

Then there's this
I'm very sorry to hear that. All of that is just sickening.

Jesus doesn't approve.
I'm assuming they believe it is evil to be an atheist, or that atheists are evil... Which I personally don't believe, but anyway these passages come to mind:
  • Matt 5:43-44 [43] “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ [44] But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,"
  • Romans 12:17-21 [17] Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone. [18] If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. [19] Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” says the Lord. [20] On the contrary:

    “If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
    if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
    In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.”

    [21] Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
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Re: The worst things that have ever been written

Post by Jonathan »

That's what's so icky about the interpretation business: it can be whatever you want it to be, whatever you think it should be, whatever you've been told it should be. You can say others are wrong, while they say the same about you, all based on the same book and the same history. If it's so easy to spin whichever way, what is it really worth? Should sects really band together under the name Christian if you think others abuse the name?
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Re: The worst things that have ever been written

Post by Word »

Some people who have read Werther, Hamlet or Anna Karenina have comitted suicide, because they identified with the main characters and their problems. Do you think that these books are therefore bad and should be banned?
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Re: The worst things that have ever been written

Post by sinewav »

Word wrote:Some people who have read Werther, Hamlet or Anna Karenina have comitted suicide, because they identified with the main characters and their problems. Do you think that these books are therefore bad and should be banned?
Those books are fiction and are not to be taken as a manual of how to live your life. The bible makes false claims about the nature of reality. This puts it in a different class. The bible would be better compared to a book of dangerous homeopathic remedies. Have Leukemia? Take ginger-root/pray and you'll be fine.
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