Apology

[Phytotron]

First, the gifs aren't directed at Gonzap solely. They're directed at everyone, this whole "conversation." It's nothing but back and forth repetition at this point, hence the latter two gifs. Get it? Har? I have nothing new to add that I haven't already said numerous times in this thread or others. You know, all that stuff that just goes...

Secondly, I did reply to Gonzap—in PM. Because this shit is tired. Besides the redundant back-and-forth recriminations, there's no getting anywhere when it's just piling on and a bunch of phony self-righteousness blended with hypocrisy. I mean, Taz, of all people? We all know his history. Let's get real here. There's nothing to learn about sanitation from people who throw shit around for a living.

Also, what Word said parenthetically there. That pretty much sums up this whole thing.

[Gonzap]

Also I didn't call him retard ever? That'd be counter productive. Also I don't think he's a retard, I think he's stubborn and that he won't change his mind whatever I say, but I will answer him once again if he tells me what exactly he thinks I didn't answer to.

[TaZ]

First, the gifs aren't directed at Gonzap solely. They're directed at everyone, this whole "conversation." It's nothing but back and forth repetition at this point, hence the latter two gifs. Get it? Har? I have nothing new to add that I haven't already said numerous times in this thread or others. You know, all that stuff that just goes...

palin-whoosh.jpg

Secondly, I did reply to Gonzap—in PM. Because this shit is tired. Besides the redundant back-and-forth recriminations, there's no getting anywhere when it's just piling on and a bunch of phony self-righteousness blended with hypocrisy. I mean, Taz, of all people? We all know his history. Let's get real here. There's nothing to learn about sanitation from people who throw shit around for a living.

Also, what Word said parenthetically there. That pretty much sums up this whole thing.

I'm sorry you feel that way, but I'm going to take that insult with nothing but love.

[Lucifer]

Should I count score, or is it enough to point out that Phytotron's losing this argument?

(A useful score: that makes 3 moderators who have mentioned that)

Gonzap: I really appreciate your making the point about international community. I don't think we mention often enough that for many people here, English is not a first language, and for some it's not even a second language.

[Gonzap]

Thanks man. It feels good to have people (specially of your status [mods, but also thoughtful people compromised in the forums]) holding your back. Or at least supporting some of your points.

I don't seek to win the argument though, I just ask for details, really easy-to-implement stuff. It wouldn't change the way forums work, but it would make us avoid a lot of drama and nonsense arguments.

[Kijutsu]

A translation of Word's post, by google translate~~ marvelous

As stupid as it may sound, I think you're both right somewhere. You hold more generally. But he calls a spade a spade and if he has offended in the thread, then it was completely deserved. They are even more proud when they describe themselves, but (dismantled and all its superficiality with a few sentences) when he does so with a different choice of words, all the morons here freak out totally. That is no longer proportionate if he now gets denied nor to defend themselves against it, because of the trouble here was not even out of him. I do not want to play a huff and simply say "Psy started it!" or anything, but (I'm doing it now though?) I think you can be just too much co-opted by one side. Sure you want a moderator that is conciliatory here, but in this particular case can only psy has resurrected the thread, then posted his crap and waiting to roll in the answers - and the MMN were critical but relatively harmless, and predictable in every case. Either he wanted to change the subject or just the three of us from the beginning bully (even to mention the fact that then 5 or 6 of his buddies come and tell us that we mean let's be or because we have offended him, because we have criticized him !). Anyway, by now, this group has got the recognition they wanted.
But now that there are only about the proportionality of correct behavior and content goes - just no more to the content itself (which had psy no headwater), relined something only their claim treated nicer to be, although not so behave, they deserve it. Even if you or I express ourselves differently phytotron, he's somewhere right, right? Compared to what Liz and her friends give of themselves daily so, for example, is the simple statement that they, their behavior and their reasoning for, all for her age are pretty immature (and this has nothing to do with education!) a big taboo (because they share out more, insert as they can). After all, the topic is not yet sealed.

We shoot every now and then went overboard, but if phytotron now reply to your post, he will certainly not some crude insult to throw at his head

tl;dr all of you are morons except for laufers

[Word]

Wrong, and not the point I tried to make. Here's a translation with some clarifications.

As stupid as it may sound, I think you're both right somewhere. You (Z-Man) in a more general way. But he (Phytotron) calls a spade a spade and if he has offended anyone in this thread, then it was completely deserved. They are even proud when they describe themselves, but whenever he does the same with a different choice of words (and wrecks their whole facade with a few sentences), suddenly all the morons here freak out.

It is no longer proportionate if he now gets denied to defend himself against that, especially because he didn't start it. I do not want to get into a huff and simply say "Psy started it!" or anything, but (Am I doing this now though?) I think you're slightly biased. Sure you as moderator want a conciliatory atmosphere here, but in this particular case psy has resurrected the thread, then posted his stuff and waited for the the answers to roll in - and in my opinion our replies were critical but relatively harmless, and predictable in every case. Either he wanted to distract from the original subject (the "psycho-babble") or he did so in order to accuse the three of us of bullying him (not to mention that 5 or 6 of his buddies come and tell us that we are so mean to him, insulted him and criticized him. Had he spent two or three minutes more to think about his post, nobody would have teared them to shreds.). Anyway, by now, this group has got the recognition they wanted.

And now that this topic is solely about the proportionality of correct behavior and content - not the content itself (where psy didn't have the upper hand - and I'm not saying that because I believe this debate could have had a "winner", because I think the 'ideas'* were absurd to begin with - and yes we did read them, took them seriously and took the time to reply in a long way so the claim that we just wanted to put him down is ridiculous.), you're making them think even more that they're entitled to be treated in a respectful way despite the simple observation that they're still in debt. Even if both of us are less aggressive than Phytotron most of the time, what he says isn't without rhyme and reason, right? Compared to the daily utterings of Liz and her friends, for example, the sheer statement that they, according to their very own behavior and their way of argumentation, behave more immature than their age suggests (and education isn't an excuse for that, especially in times of the internet) isn't the right thing to be frowned upon by someone in your position, IMO (because now your personal opinions get istrumentalized by them: 'even the moderators agree with us, so this side must be wrong').
But I'm already glad the topic didn't need to be locked yet.
We sometimes overshoot, but Phytotron certainly won't simply throw insults at you for disagreeing with him, because he knows you aren't supporting either side just for the sake of hating people who disagree with you.

*psy even put it in quotes himself, showing that he didn't care about it either

the tl,dr (at least the one I cared about here) is that he's not really reenforcing anything he has been criticized for, but that the criticism is baseless in the first place. You're angry you're called out for talking shit? Then don't provoke it and complain later. That three moderators think "Phytotron is losing" and all of them don't quite seem to get what psy did here is still bothering me...meh...didn't you also think that the Elmo-discussion could possibly scare transsexuals, Lucifer? It's like trying explain someone a dilemma, where the explaining itself is already the biggest problem, not because it's difficult to verbalize, but because nobody really reads and it's more comfortable to just consider everything Phytotron says offensive, regardless how substantial those offenses are. Now psy or Gonzap might say "but Phytotron is doing just that with us!" but where is YOUR substance? Why was it wrong to say you're talking pointless gibberish/crap/whatever when you aren't giving anyone a sufficient reason to be polite, and instead just get personal and try to find out how many other frustrated victims of rationality you can gather? It was your job to keep your cool and just bomb us with facts, but no, you're making it look as if you're bullied, while trying to bully us.

[þsy]

Of the many complaints vocalised here, two have been that language has been used to exclude/bully others, and that posts are too personal/offensive

Word responds by posting a comment in German (which he knows I, and the majority of us don't understand), where he talks continuously about me personally (despite there being many complaints from lots of different people), referring to me and others (though not directly) as "morons"

How much more abuse do I have to receive from these guys before they warrant a ban? I didn't want it to come it, but this is getting ridiculous

It seems the arma-community is fairly united behind the general sentiments stated (3 SPs - including myself, many more non-SP, moderators etc.), so please stop targeting me and either listen to what we're saying, or go away!

[Word]

Now you're just repeating your mantra until you believe it yourself, aren't you?

It seems the arma-community is fairly united behind the general sentiments stated (3 SPs - including myself, many more non-SP, moderators etc.), so please stop targeting me and either listen to what we're saying, or go away!

Why can't you see how absurd that is? "Oh, I'll just get a ton of ignorant morons here to tell me I'm right, then I am right!". Should I already start to mobilize my own peers so they can affirm my own claims?

Word responds by posting a comment in German

Yeah, and it was neither anything new, nor offending you. Do your German clan members never talk about you in their language? "all the morons here" referred to "all the morons here", not specifically you. Why did you pay so much attention to that specific post of mine, and none to the others? And there's already a translation, so it's fair again now.

which he knows I, and the majority of us can translate with google if any of you even give a real damn about it, as compguygene and Lizmatic have already shown

fixed

(I should add that the "Wrong" in my previous post referred to the "tl;dr"-part)

How much more abuse do I have to receive from these guys before they warrant a ban? I didn't want it to come it, but this is getting ridiculous

As I've said in my German post, I don't buy that. That is exactly what you have wanted the whole time. Maybe the form was bad, but what are you going to do about the content? And you're again proving our side's point that you just can't refute or even tolerate such conclusions.

[Phytotron]

Psy: both White Knight and Victim complex. No one is abusing you, certainly no more than you and your cohorts are "abusing" anyone else. Stop it. All you're accomplishing is giving me less and less reason to consider any aspect of your criticisms. You're not credible claimants.

[Lucifer]

That three moderators think "Phytotron is losing" and all of them don't quite seem to get what psy did here is still bothering me...meh...didn't you also think that the Elmo-discussion could possibly scare transsexuals, Lucifer?

I believe that we three moderators have a more nuanced view than that, and here's what I think:

I'm not reading much of the conversation, but I'm seeing personal attacks flying on both sides. Phytotron's usual tactic is to start with an overly verbose post that is fairly respectful as far as the people talking are concerned (but include his regular series of jabs at the various groups that he's prejudiced against), and when someone responds (often a heated response), THEN IN HIS RESPONSE he starts up the personal attacks. I see that this has happened here, and the other side came in point-blank with their own attacks.

So ignoring most of it for awhile and seeing if it'll sort itself out, I notice Word and Phytotron demanding a reasoned, thoughtful post that does not include any personal attacks and promising that if they see it, they will respond in kind.

When Gonzap provided that reasoned, thoughtful post, I see that he has not received the response in kind that he was promised.

I don't know or care which side is right on the base issues being discussed. I *do* care that you guys make these demands all the time, and now that someone has met this demand, you have not rewarded him like you promised.

That's why I say Gonzap is winning. He took the step forward toward peace, and you guys just kept jumping on him for everything said before that. Get over it. Keep your promise. Or leave the thread alone and make no further posts in it. Or watch it get locked.

[Lucifer]

Now then, let me see what I can do here. I'm copying and pasting from PMs I sent, and have more to add after aggregating it all together here.

Where it starts, psy comes in here wanting to talk about something he thinks is interesting. I believe he should have started a new thread for it, and I'm sure that looking back on it, he realizes that too. Everyone here is free to bring up subjects they think are interesting, and psy hasn't attacked anybody yet.

Then there's some discussion, and then this post:

http://forums3.armagetronad.net/viewtop ... 38#p269538

At this point in the thread, psy hasn't engaged in any sort of personal attack and I see Word getting emotional. Word and Liz have already exchanged volleys.

Word also hasn't gone into attack mode yet, Gonzap hasn't been heard from. psy has made several polite posts where he attempts discussion, and Word has made some posts that I find lacking in tact, but overall are not attacks. Conversation is still civil.

Then Phytotron shows up in his first post since the resurrection with this post (linked and quoted):

http://forums3.armagetronad.net/viewtop ... 60#p269560

Word did not revive this topic. Psy did, and I really don't know why, other than to ostentatiously muse over what he thinks he's learned from his gender studies class(es) at university, or whatever he's babbling about. Certainly nothing interesting has come of it.


As I pointed out in the other thread, all of this jibber-jabber since the subject has been revived is nothing but idiotic internet clan/clique/gang/tribal bullshit. None of you (Liz, Gaz, et al) give one rat's ass about any universal principles, especially regarding the proper treatment of people. Liz never has. S/he (I'm increasingly skeptical of its gender; henceforth to be referred to as "it") has been on both sides of just about everyone in this game—whatever's convenient for its mean-spirited shit-spewing. And yet weak-minded teens continue to associate with it. Get a clue, kids. If you think you're on its good side, in its clique, for now; just wait, you're about to get stabbed in the back.

And here Liz is telling other people they have no life? That others thrive on idiotic, contrived drama, when Liz is invariably in the middle of it, often inciting it, and so plainly getting joy from it? This is the epitome of hypocrisy.

Armchair psychiatrist thinks it's obvious Liz suffers from either antisocial, borderline, and/or narcissistic personality disorder(s). The person is clearly disturbed. Why anyone would continue to associate with or make excuses for it is beyond my personal comprehension. It's only explainable within the context of internet culture, and the degenerated, diseased minds that have resulted from it.


Fact is, Word has displayed more "balls"—and let me again point out the misogyny inherent in that term—integrity, maturity, wit, and intellect than most of you pea-brained, petty, Lord of the Flies-aping cretins combined.

That post is nothing but attacks. I see no attempt to have a discussion. He starts off by tearing down psy's hypothesis as incoherent babbling, and then goes on to attack everybody else he doesn't like that has ever posted in this thread. There is nothing laudible in this post.

Phytotron came in with all guns blazing.

Then this post, which is Gonzap's first post since the resurrection:

http://forums3.armagetronad.net/viewtop ... 66#p269566

I think it's obvious he's being testy with Word by issuing this one-liner.

Then psy speaks up:

Psy did, and I really don't know why, other than to ostentatiously muse over what he thinks he's learned from his gender studies class(es) at university, or whatever he's babbling about

People are a little too eager to belittle other's opinions which has crushed any creative discussion

Yeah, hey Phyto, the way you talk to people on here is not very nice. You, along with Sine, and apprentice Word rule this palace, policing posts - telling people why they're wrong and you're right, making personal jibes whilst you're at it

So, this is it for me as far as 'general' discussion goes, cyaaaouywww

As you can see by my links, at the time that psy made this post, he has been trying to have a reasonable discussion. Word has been tactless, but when Phytotron shows up, he's all attacking. AND THIS IS PSY'S FIRST POST AFTER PHYTOTRON'S ATTACK.

He hasn't even gone defensive. He is now bringing up a subject that is obviously bothering him, has for years, and has the proof that it happens right here in this thread.

And Word's response? Calling him a 'chicken'.

Let me point this out once again, in case anybody missed it: Phytotron made no logical argument nor any discussion at the time Psy posted this. It is *not* ad hominem. Ad hominem is the logical fallacy where you try to shoot down somebody's argument by attacking their person. Phytotron made no argument, he simply attacked everybody, and Psy is asking for discussion on this, and is obviously feeling a bit heated up, but has otherwise not attacked yet.

Then these two in an exchange with Word:

Nope, I always discuss the points put in front of me - it's when you can't distinguish between 'ideas' and the people who have them that things get 'ad-hominem'. Any time someone tries to put forward an 'idea', about anything - music, film, politics etc., the aforementioned do a very good job of shooting the 'idea' + the person down

Paradoxically, simply by mentioning your names (Phyto, Sine, and Word), I am myself getting personal. Well, I'm just a bit tired of it - trying to be polite and discussing things equally, when all I get is a ton of shit thrown back at me at every corner. So as I'm out, I might as well share my thoughts:

You three bully people on these forums. The internet is often thought to have enabled more horizontal, non-hierarchical discussion - yet through repeatedly putting down and belittling others, you have created for yourself a greater 'clout' than other members of this forum.

I believe that Phyto, who I have literally never seen play tron or even appear on the armabrowser in 4 years of my time playing, has bullied people across the forums for years, simply to make himself feel like a bigger person. Maybe he doesn't get to exercise the power he seeks in real life, so he manages to get his kicks out by stalking people on a forum for a game that he doesn't even play? I wouldn't want to say, I've never met the guy

Sine, on the hand, hooked up with Phyto a while back to make a killer double team. While he wasn't as offensive, he used his bullying (plus the genuinely hard work he put into running ladles) to develop a greater say on matters regarding ladle issues than other people. This, meant his posts carried more weight than us other average tronners, and has made people afraid to to contradict anything he's said at the risking of getting squashed by the big man, leaving no room for further discussion

Word, finally, has seen the way Phyto and Sine operate and the power they wield, and has decided to go after it himself. He then waits for posts from others, scours the internet for a funny and 'smart' comment to make, chucking in the odd Greek philosopher while he's at it - coz no one can argues wid dem - and then sits back arguing some ridiculous point to death. At first, his posts offended Phyto and Sine greatly, but once they realised he was just trying to be like them, they took him under their wings as their apprentice

THERE WE GO. Many years of frustration there (and not just my own opinion, lots of angry discussions have revolved around not being able to discuss stuff because of you three)

Followed by:

I went a little too far, but that is in essence how I feel you operate on this forum

As for that particular incident (and I'm talking about 4 years worth here, not one particular thing) flex spoke for himself, not SP. And once again, here I am speaking on my behalf and no one else's...

After that, psy continues to behave in a conciliatory manner while Word continues to belittle him for it.

After that is when the conversation turned towards bullying.

After some more stuff, then we get this delightful post from me:

When Gonzap provided that reasoned, thoughtful post, I see that he has not received the response in kind that he was promised.

I don't know or care which side is right on the base issues being discussed. I *do* care that you guys make these demands all the time, and now that someone has met this demand, you have not rewarded him like you promised.

So, should I just lock it now, or do you two, Phyto and Word, actually intend to own your behavior here?

[ppotter]

I've been reading this with little more than amusement, but the incessant gif/picture posting is both obnoxious and unnecessary. I imagine if the roles were reversed you would be most scathing about your opponent hiding behind humourous (or not) images, rather than offering a serious rebuttal.




Edit: Nice summary, Lucifer.

[Phytotron]

But that's not the whole story, nor the complete context. Stop treating every thread like it's a blank slate existing in a vacuum. This all actually began back with Word's harmless tease of Elmo, which got split to this thread. More to the point, it really started when Gaz began attacking Word for that comment, and then the clan/clique joining in and ganging up on Word. Note Liz's attacks. You'll also note my comments in that thread, which are relevant later.

Then, that thread overlapped with this one when Psy inexplicably revived this thread with a completely useless comment:

Oh my, I've just seen this!

ahaa Elmo you're a genius

Then, 4 days later, devicat, presumably not noticing the discrepancy in dates, continues it. Then Psy began with his "philosophizing," and asked for comment. Word gave him legitimate responses. (I've only skimmed them, but I don't see the tactlessness you do, either.)

Then, a couple other things you left out. First, Psy dismisses one of Word's responses with an "lol." (Only the beginning in a series of double-standards and hypocritical statements and actions throughout this thread. "Don't dismiss or belittle what other people say." What do you call that?)

Then, immediately following that, Liz jumps in instigating her trolling attacks on Word. Notice they had nothing to do with anything. Notice also how in that post and subsequent ones she tries to reframe reality by making out that Word is the one who revived the topic in an effort to get attention and create drama. Please.

Then, Psy and Word have some more exchange on the philo-stuff. (Again, notice Psy doing exactly what he later accused and scolded others for doing: Telling someone else what they can and can't discuss, on his terms.)

Now, before we get to where I entered, I need to bring in some more context, that regarding discussions of gender that I've previously had with Psy, beginning here.


So, now we come to the part where I come into this thread with the post you quoted. Now given the greater context, look at my comments and the points I made.

1) a) I first and foremost made the point that Word did not revive this, Psy did. Liz can't be allowed to get away with that crap; it's classic trolling. Trolling made successful when Psy "and co." jumped on that bandwagon and made this all about us.
b) "I really don't know why," a nod to the annoyance of the revival of a dead thread.
c) I took a general jab at the philosophical stuff based on those prior exchanges, rather than retread.
d) I said I found it uninteresting, which is why I didn't give a critique of it. Also served the same purpose as (b).

That's not really what I would consider much of an attack on Psy. Snarky, sure.

2) Then I moved on to calling out Liz's trolling and harassment of Word, as well as that of her little crew. Again, remember that this was overlapping with that other thread. They weren't just "guns blazing" scatter-shot random attacks out of nowhere, as you'd like to portray them. (And why don't you make the same point about all of Liz's and others' "contributions," or do they get a pass just because you expect it of them, Liz especially?) They were related to the crap in that other thread that was brought over to this one. See? This portion had nothing to do with Psy or his philo-stuff.

You want to talk about nuance, realize there's more than one thing going on here at the same time.

3) I gave Word credit. Oh no!

Then, you ignore Gaz's comment. Then Gonzap comes in, who knows why, and picks on Word. Then Psy goes on his victim/white knight I HAVE TO GET OUT MY FEELS rant making accusations about bullying and so forth, which I totally reject. Then the clan-based pile-on. I've never even seen two or three of those people before. And in the middle of that Gonzap brings in all his own personal grievances, ones that we've covered extensively in prior threads. Cluster-fork.

All of which coming from people, most of whom have no credibility in making the kinds of accusations and criticisms they have. No, I'm not going to take such people seriously.

And yadda yadda.


Anyway, a few other disjointed points:

First, I have always been explicitly sympathetic to and accommodating of people who don't speak English as a first language. Just search my posts for "language." See for yourself.

Second, I did respond to Gonzap's longer post, just not here. I did so in part in PM, as I mentioned, and it remains to be seen what comes of that. But also "retroactively" in the sense that we've already argued about almost all that in other, earlier threads, even this one. All that stuff about "you can't say people's opinions are wrong" and "you use big words to be pretentious and demonstrative." And covering all that crap again gets tiring. If some of you would have longer attention spans or memories, or pay attention in the first place, we wouldn't have to do that. I admittedly don't have the patience or energy for it. That's where the gifs/pics come in, trying to bring in a little funny. Also, too much tumblr.

But at the same time, I don't take all of what he said as being as honest and reasoned as you do, and find half of it hypocritical. Sorry, I don't buy it, not in whole.

Third, I have always acknowledged that I have many opinions, strong opinions, stated frankly and strongly without evasion or hedge words—and can be snarky, snide, sarcastic, grouchy, even acerbic in so doing. Stubborn, too, though not just for the sake of it, but when I really believe in what I'm saying. However, there's a difference between snark and all that, and animosity or maliciousness; something some people fail to understand. That said, I must also point out that half the stuff that's taken offensively is misperception, a result of this fragile personality and attitude that takes any disagreement or jab as automatically carrying personal animosity. That especially applies to someone like Psy, who strikes me as the kind of person you have to walk on eggshells around. Of course, others here are just pretending, and you all damn well know it.

Fourth, to reiterate, I don't believe most people in this clustfork have credibility in making some of the accusations that they have. Whether they're aware of it and being dishonest and playing games, or whether they're genuinely unaware, I don't know. But either way, "don't call people names, asshole" isn't the type of argument I'm going to take seriously. Criticisms from such people, some of whom have vitriolically harassed me for years, don't carry much weight with me, go figure.

Neither do those from people who make false equivalences or give certain people a pass by saying, essentially, "boys will be boys."


BLAH

So much of this is manufactured controversy.

And this bullying accusation is completely bogus.

[Lucifer]

But that's not the whole story, nor the complete context. Stop treating every thread like it's a blank slate existing in a vacuum.

I'm not, even if I'm not totally paying attention to the other threads. In THIS thread, your enemies took a step towards you with the hope that peace could be made. You can link to as many threads as you want, but you cannot change this fact.

This all actually began back with Word's harmless tease of Elmo, which got split to this thread. More to the point, it really started when Gaz began attacking Word for that comment, and then the clan/clique joining in and ganging up on Word.

Oops, didn't notice the split. I thought Word's joke was funny. But I want to point out that on both sides, grudges have been held for years. Both sides need to grow up. Our current conversation is about who is showing more maturity right now, in this thread.

What's the relationship between Gaz and Gonzap? In THIS thread, Gaz is either just trolling, or hasn't made enough of a comment to merit my attention.

Note Liz's attacks. You'll also note my comments in that thread, which are relevant later.

I'm only going to say this once. In THIS thread, Liz is just a sideshow clown. That's what she is in most threads, but in this one in particular, that's all she is. She hasn't contributed anything, she's made comments she thought were funny, and she has SUCCESSFULLY baited both you and Word. YOU contribute to her success on these forums. STOP FEEDING THE TROLLS.

Then, that thread overlapped with this one when Psy inexplicably revived this thread with a completely useless comment:

Oh my, I've just seen this!

ahaa Elmo you're a genius

And what's psy's relationship to anything in the other thread? I don't see him in that thread at all.

Word gave him legitimate responses. (I've only skimmed them, but I don't see the tactlessness you do, either.)

We agree that Word gave legitimate responses. You should read back over it, he's bordering on personal attacks, without quite crossing the line.

Then, a couple other things you left out. First, Psy dismisses one of Word's responses with an "lol."

I was summarizing. People who need more than my summary are free to read the entire thread themselves.

(Only the beginning in a series of double-standards and hypocritical statements and actions throughout this thread. "Don't dismiss or belittle what other people say." What do you call that?)

I call that a legitimate answer to a series of attacks from you and Word, because Word abandoned "legitimate responses". He responded with a pretty reasonable thing: quit belittling me when I have been making "legitimate responses" to everything in terms you have always been asking for. You didn't interpret it that way, but to do so would require you to look back at what else he's doing.

Then, immediately following that, Liz jumps in instigating her trolling attacks on Word. Notice they had nothing to do with anything. Notice also how in that post and subsequent ones she tries to reframe reality by making out that Word is the one who revived the topic in an effort to get attention and create drama. Please.

Liz is a sideshow clown, and you are as much responsible for her behavior at this point as she is. Quit baiting her, quit letting her bait you, or just STFU and **** her brains out, since that's clearly where this needs to go.

Then, Psy and Word have some more exchange on the philo-stuff. (Again, notice Psy doing exactly what he later accused and scolded others for doing: Telling someone else what they can and can't discuss, on his terms.)

Actually, I read that as psy asking for comments on his post, not all this sideshow bullshit. As I said, and I'm sure he agrees at this point, he should have started a new thread.

Now, before we get to where I entered, I need to bring in some more context, that regarding discussions of gender that I've previously had with Psy, beginning here.

Don't forget I was an active part of that conversation.

1) a) I first and foremost made the point that Word did not revive this, Psy did. Liz can't be allowed to get away with that crap; it's classic trolling. Trolling made successful when Psy "and co." jumped on that bandwagon and made this all about us.

I don't see where psy and co. made this all about you. Liz trolled you and you fell for it AGAIN. In her game, she wins and you lose, quit acting all butt-hurt about it, move on, and quit letting her get the best of you. In this thread, she has done nothing else but successfully troll you, and you're making a public ass of yourself by continuing to insist that this is important. It's not. Be a grown-up and forget about her.

b) "I really don't know why," a nod to the annoyance of the revival of a dead thread.
c) I took a general jab at the philosophical stuff based on those prior exchanges, rather than retread.

WIthout in ANY WAY responding to the questions he raised. You completely dismissed it without offering any sort of logical argument against it. Even if you had simply said "I think this postmodern bullshit is crap", you would not have offered a logical argument that in any way discussed what psy brought up. Simply put: whatever you thought you were doing, you attacked without anything to back up your side other than your opinions, and then YOU turned around and got butt-hurt when the side that you hate so much didn't accept a lack of evidence, facts, or logical argument on your part.

d) I said I found it uninteresting, which is why I didn't give a critique of it. Also served the same purpose as (b).

In that case, do as you have repeatedly advised others to do: say nothing.

That's not really what I would consider much of an attack on Psy. Snarky, sure.

2) Then I moved on to calling out Liz's trolling and harassment of Word, as well as that of her little crew. Again, remember that this was overlapping with that other thread. They weren't just "guns blazing" scatter-shot random attacks out of nowhere, as you'd like to portray them.

I've said all I have to say about this, and I've said it repeatedly in previous threads. You want to be butthurt because of previous thread bullshit? Then I'm prepared to throw it all right back at you. Let's see what you've got.

(And why don't you make the same point about all of Liz's and others' "contributions," or do they get a pass just because you expect it of them, Liz especially?) They were related to the crap in that other thread that was brought over to this one. See? This portion had nothing to do with Psy or his philo-stuff.

For the same reason I ignore sideshow clowns. I figure I'm better than that. In fact, speaking of sideshow clowns, when I went to vote on Tuesday, as I approached the electioneering line, there were three local candidates there still campaigning. As they started to speak, I leaped across the electioneering line. They all said "I can't talk to you anymore" and turned around.

THAT is how you deal with trolls.

3) I gave Word credit. Oh no!

For attacks of his own? For his tactlessness? For what, exactly?

Then, you ignore Gaz's comment.

Sideshow clown again.

Then Gonzap comes in, who knows why, and picks on Word.

As I quoted, Gonzap came in with a sarcastic one-liner that you couldn't write, because your posts must be at least 1000 words, where at least 30% of it must be vitriol and 50% of it has to be words that our english-as-a-second-language audience don't understand, where you fully intend to rebuke them for not understanding english as well as a native, even though most native english speakers don't get it either.

Gonzap's first post of substance was reasoned, thoughtful, and everything you DEMAND from people, and you blew it off over a sarcastic one-liner that doesn't even compare to the kind of shit you throw at people. I take your side against 2020 because when he wants to start some effort, I want him to LEAD it and I think he has to deal with you. I'm taking a side against you right now because your enemies have done exactly what you demand, and you can't show them the respect they deserve for it.

And in the middle of that Gonzap brings in all his own personal grievances, ones that we've covered extensively in prior threads. Cluster-fork.

Not sure where the other crap is, because THIS is what Gonzap's first post in the thread (excluding his one-liner) was all about, and he and psy were together.

All of which coming from people, most of whom have no credibility in making the kinds of accusations and criticisms they have. No, I'm not going to take such people seriously.

Ad hominem. Logical fallacy. As you say:

And yadda yadda.

First, I have always been explicitly sympathetic to and accommodating of people who don't speak English as a first language. Just search my posts for "language." See for yourself.

You say it but don't do it. Do as I say, not as I do. This is a point Gonzap raised against you to which you didn't respond.

Second, I did respond to Gonzap's longer post, just not here. I did so in part in PM, as I mentioned, and it remains to be seen what comes of that.

The appropriate response would have been a public response. Right now, I don't believe you. Make it a public response that I can see, and you might change my mind. Your response to him should be subject to peer review, including Liz's sideshow clowning, on exactly the same terms that his post was made. You need to meet him on the same hill he has met you. Basic peace negotiations going back all the way to prehistory. You should know that, and I shouldn't have to tell you.

But also "retroactively" in the sense that we've already argued about almost all that in other, earlier threads, even this one. All that stuff about "you can't say people's opinions are wrong" and "you use big words to be pretentious and demonstrative." And covering all that crap again gets tiring. If some of you would have longer attention spans or memories, or pay attention in the first place, we wouldn't have to do that. I admittedly don't have the patience or energy for it.

Except that in this thread you were served. You were told in a completely reasonable and polite way why your arguments in all the other threads are wrong. The example set by the other side defeats your argument. Criticism was asked for on the same terms that you ask for it on your posts, and you failed to deliver it, by instead delivering attacks.

It doesn't matter if the other side has never done that before (even though they have, and you conveniently linked to such a thread). What matters is that they're doing it HERE, and NOW. There's an olive branch. Quit being a thick-skulled jerk and take it.

But at the same time, I don't take all of what he said as being as honest and reasoned as you do, and find half of it hypocritical. Sorry, I don't buy it, not in whole.

Since I've shown you your own hypocrisy, can we just set aside Jesus's command not to be hypocrites and accept that every human alive is a hypocrite and move on like, you know, grown-ups?

Third, I have always acknowledged that I have many opinions, strong opinions, stated frankly and strongly without evasion or hedge words—and can be snarky, snide, sarcastic, grouchy, even acerbic in so doing. Stubborn, too, though not just for the sake of it, but when I really believe in what I'm saying. However, there's a difference between snark and all that, and animosity or maliciousness; something some people fail to understand.

There's also a difference between snark and all that and well-communicated opinions. From your personal frame of reference, your opinions are well-communicated. From a third-person frame of reference (such as the three moderators who have pointed out that you're wrong this time), it's not always so good.

By your standards, I must now ask you to step outside your bubble or risk being accused of egocentrism.

That said, I must also point out that half the stuff that's taken offensively is misperception, a result of this fragile personality and attitude that takes any disagreement or jab as automatically carrying personal animosity.

Jumping to conclusions. You don't know nor can you prove that any of these people have fragile personalities. Quite the contrary, my summary showed that they have strong personalities and they hung with you as long as they could before the attacks got to a point where they degenerated with you.

Your point of view isn't the One Right View. You need to step out of yourself from time to time and see yourself as others see you. It's not always flattering, and that's what you need to see.

That especially applies to someone like Psy, who strikes me as the kind of person you have to walk on eggshells around. Of course, others here are just pretending, and you all damn well know it.

Based on threads you linked to (e.g. your own evidence), I disagree with your assessment of psy. I find him someone who can have a reasonable and logical discussion, even though I felt pretty strongly that he wasn't understanding. Without resorting to attacks, he and I reached an understanding in that thread.

Fourth, to reiterate, I don't believe most people in this clustfork have credibility in making some of the accusations that they have. Whether they're aware of it and being dishonest and playing games, or whether they're genuinely unaware, I don't know. But either way, "don't call people names, asshole" isn't the type of argument I'm going to take seriously. Criticisms from such people, some of whom have vitriolically harassed me for years, don't carry much weight with me, go figure.

More ad hominem, and ignoring how you have vitriolically harassed them for years as well. We've had this discussion before. There's a point where it doesn't matter who started it, what matters is who steps up as the grown-up and rises above it. You have failed to do that, and you blame these "other people" for your failure.

Neither do those from people who make false equivalences or give certain people a pass by saying, essentially, "boys will be boys."

So are you now suggesting we give 2020 his well-moderated thread free from your own responses? Or are you willing to accept that you've received protection under the "boys will be boys" clause and move on? We can stop that protection anytime you're no longer comfortable with it.

So much of this is manufactured controversy.

Then step away from it. Be a grown-up and walk away.

And this bullying accusation is completely bogus.

They made a case that you have not responded to. Until you do, this statement is the sort of unsupported assertion you repeatedly argue against.

Eat your own dog food. Or accept other people being hypocrites, because it's on your sleeve right now.