Osama is dead now.

[INW]

Was just watching sports center. They showed a lot of parties over here. Hundreds of colleges and hundreds of thousands of partiers.

I think we all have a feeling, this isn't the end.

[apparition]

All I can say is that I'm glad that everyone's reactions and opinions aren't following stereotypes - it helps people realize we're all self-aware individuals able to form conclusions not completely based on the information that's being streamed into our brains. But some people (American and otherwise) are using this as a platform to launch personal arguments. The fingerpointing sucks. Scientists, skeptics, Americans, religious folk, whatever. To me, all these ridiculous reactions are just evidence of the unsettling confusion people feel. We can cling to our theories and our beliefs (they make ourselves feel better afterall), but none of us know what the heck is really going on. We should all embrace the fact that we really don't know shit about all this shit and let this shit blow over without jumping to conclusions, blaming each other, and creating another war.

Something just bothers me about your posts, Lucifer. I guess maybe I just don't get what you're trying to say. And without trying to offend you, let me just say you like to make authoritative posts on all of this when in reality you're no more an authority figure on this than anyone else. None of us are. You tell Syllabear not to apologize and stand behind his unpopular arguments, but yell down compguy for having unpopular skepticism. You discuss the 'absolute truths' behind 9/11 (except possibly that weird 3 person scenario), and then you argue that Bin Laden's death isn't significant and it is actually just an event being used for Obama's political gain? And then you talk about what you've learned from Ghandi? You're just making things fit your personal beliefs. I don't think you want to accept that the complexity of these situations are beyond any normal person's understanding.


EDIT: Changed sizes for emphasis

[Mkay1]

MEcca: I despise your topics. We aren't little stupid children who need to be told to discuss. Isn't that the whole point of a topic where people can post what they think? Its redundant. "Osama is dead now" "discuss". It would be nice if you at least contributed to the background. If you can't then please leave topic creating to other people. You don't really add anything of substance to the conversation, either, just a bunch of "+1"'s and "lul" and pictures.

Edit: Which Osama are you talking about? For all we know it could be Osama from Chicago, or Osama from England... you really need to give background if you want intelligible conversations. Sure it is implied, due to recent activity, but it is nonetheless annoying.

[compguygene]

Occam's razor is my friend, Lucifer. But, as appa pointed out the tone of your posts is rather authoritative. I do completely respect that, hence the reason for my withdrawal from this debate. It is pointless to debate with someone that won't even consider your viewpoint.

[sinewav]

I'm really curious how he was able to live so freely for so long without the CIA knowing where he was.

Part of me thinks some of that really is CIA incompetence. It's the same incompetence that probably allowed 11-September to happen (this is assuming they had some clues beforehand). Now, I don't believe the CIA is incompetent to the point of uselessness, but I imagine it can sometimes be like any other large government agency - a lot of paperwork and protocol to follow. It could be that there just wasn't enough resources to find this guy in a timely manner. But they did eventually find him and that proves their worth in my opinion.

Here is one thing to remember though. OBL wasn't just any man. He was a brilliant, rich Saudi with lots of connections to important people, surrounded by minions who would die to protect him. Where they eventually found him confirmed all our suspicions that he wasn't hiding out in a cave or a hut (finding an indistinct looking man in millions of square miles of desert/mountains would take years anyway) - he was hiding under our noses, protected by an information wall. It's exactly what I'd expect, and the timing seems appropriate for the task.

So I guess I really don't see the CIA as incompetent, but maybe we think they are more capable than what is realistic. Could be the fault of movies/TV, and the desire to feel safe.

[Phytotron]

Haha, I knew the crackpots would come out to play. And you're doing exactly as I explained elsewhere that conspirawhackos do: Rather than examining evidence and drawing a conclusion, you begin with the conclusion you want to believe because of some prejudice, then grasp at any obscure and just plain made-up bit of "proof" to support it.

And please, you know you won't accept any refutation or debunking of it; you've erected your entire worldview upon an immense, though fundamentally unsound, architecture of this lunacy. Accept that one part of it is wrong and it'll all collapse like a Jenga puzzle—implode, even. You can't allow that to happen. You won't allow it to happen.

I truly don't understand where this impulse comes from, the need to believe that there's some elaborate conspiracy behind every motherflipping event.

***

Personally, I'm disappointed he was killed. I would have much preferred he were apprehended and brought to trial, preferably at the ICC. There is a significant, substantial difference between vengeance and justice. The former was served here, not the latter.

Reportedly, however, they did initially attempt to apprehend him, but were unable due to the fire-fight. Plausible. Also plausible, that they simply didn't want to fool with the legal mess of it. Look at the problems the Obama Justice Department has had in trying to—and ultimately giving up on—closing Gitmo and trying people in the US.

This is also exactly the sort of operation that should have been pursued from Day 1, as I've said from Day 1. Intelligence gathering, cooperation with foreign governments, special joint forces "surgical strike" operations. It was a crime against humanity which should have (and terrorism in general should continue to be) pursued as an international legal and political matter. That, rather than the farcical "War on Terrorism," involving aggressive invasions (one of which, of course, had nothing to do with 9/11 or al-Qa'ida), mass civilian casualties, occupations, and piracy that GWB and his neocon and corporate imperialist clique pursued, and Obama generally continued.

***

As for the "hiding in plain sight" question, two things so far (besides that being a viable tactic in and of itself, when everyone thinks you're constantly cave-hopping in the mountainous frontier): (1) Reportedly, there were absolutely no communications in that compound; no phone, television, satellite, internet, nothing that could be traced by intelligence agencies (that "information wall" sinewav mentioned). They used couriers, instead—and it was a detained courier who ultimately led to that location. (2) There has been open suspicion for some time now that sympathetic peoples within the Pakistan government may have been tipping off al-Qa'ida to US operations. Just a few years ago Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said to Pakistani newspaper editors, "Al-Qaeda has had safe haven in Pakistan since 2002. ... I find it hard to believe that nobody in your government knows where they are and couldn't get them if they really wanted to." Overall, however, the Pakistan government and intelligence service has done more to kill or detain, and generally disrupt al-Qa'ida than any other country, by a wide margin.

And, sinewav having posted while I'm typing all this up: What he said, too. I got news for ya, kids, "24" and such ain't nowhere near realistic. Same goes for cop shows (e.g., Law & Order, CSI, NCIS, whatever), which also contribute to the general public's warped and exaggerated conception of what these sorts of agencies (criminal justice, forensics, intelligence, etc.) are capable.

Speaking of which, sidebar book promo: "Back to our Future" by David Sirota.

***

Is this actually politically convenient for Obama? Will he really benefit in any substantial way? I doubt it. Think about it. How many of you genuinely believe that the right wing and tea party extremists are suddenly going to change their tone, agenda, and incessant vitriolic attacks and get on board with Obama's (centrist) agenda? Please, get real. This "we're united again" nonsense is just emotionalism; it's part of the infotainment.

Yes, 9/11 was politically convenient to GWB and Co., and they exploited it in audacious and extreme ways (although, not even as far as they could've). But political opportunism that occurs after the fact doesn't equal prior knowledge and planning to set up such opportunism before the fact. That's basic sense.

***

Syllabear's Anglocentric jingo-nationalism VS. any American jingo-nationalists (INW, etc.): Shut the hell up. This isn't the first time such exchanges have come up on this forum, and it's still every bit as idiotic. "My dad can beat up your dad." Seriously, that's substantively the level it's at.

***

Watching these spontaneous celebrations last night, something rather starkly jumped out at me: They were made up universally of (white) kids, looking in their early 20's. Huh? Explanations?

1) All the grown-ups were in bed, having to get up and go to work Monday morning.
2) Kids that age, and especially this particular generation, will use any excuse to party and go "wooooo!"
3) Given that they would have been 8-13 years old at the time, is it possible that bin Laden is conceptualised in an almost cartoonish manner, like an evil arch-nemesis in a movie? Especially the Michael Bay-style movies that have predominated their cultural lives?

Also, watching C-SPAN, they took a call from some guy, an adult in this case, who, from what I picked up, runs some 9/11 memorial something-or-another in NYC. I was flabbergasted when he said, "we just killed the cancer with one shot." Say what?

4) Is it possible that some people are so ill-informed and lacking in comprehension that they believe killing off bin Laden now ends al-Qa'ida, and possibly terrorism in general? I mean, this isn't a state or a military; it isn't even comparable to organised crime and a mob boss being taken down. This isn't like Hitler's death and V-E day, but some seem to be treating it as though it is.

***

Sylla: funny how you do all this shit about repentance, and yet are a total dick on the grid. If you were so "religiously orientated" why don't you show it at all?

Something that has continuously perplexed me, as well.

Mecca: I despise your topics. We aren't little stupid children who need to be told to discuss. Isn't that the whole point of a topic where people can post what they think? Its redundant. "Osama is dead now" "discuss". It would be nice if you at least contributed to the background. If you can't then please leave topic creating to other people. You don't really add anything of substance to the conversation, either, just a bunch of "+1"'s and "lul" and pictures.

Going to have to completely agree with this as well, additionally pointing out the quality of inanity and banality in all of them. "Your favorite drink?" Seriously?


EDIT 1: typos ... EDIT 2: another typo ... EDIT 3: added comment about political "convenience"

[Word]

Personally, I'm disappointed he was killed. I would have much preferred he were apprehended and brought to trial, preferably at the ICC. There is a significant, substantial difference between vengeance and justice. The former was served here, not the latter.

It was self-defense if he tried to kill the soldiers that wanted to arrest him (although he'd probably have been sentenced to death if they brought him to America). He had a weapon and there was a shootout (if it's true what the news report).

and i agree with Mkay, these "discuss"-topics are getting on my nerves, too.

[Phytotron]

Personally, I'm disappointed he was killed. I would have much preferred he were apprehended and brought to trial, preferably at the ICC. There is a significant, substantial difference between vengeance and justice. The former was served here, not the latter.

It was self-defense if he tried to kill the soldiers that wanted to arrest him.... He had a weapon and there was a shootout (if it's true what the news report).

Like I said in the next sentence.

(although he'd probably have been sentenced to death if they brought him to America)

Definitely, which I would have opposed.

[syllabear]

Lol for the most part your post rings true with some of what I've said, and perhaps expresses how I feel bette than I've managed to (although a bit less usa bashing ).

And don't forget, its entirely possible they've captured him and said they killed/immediately burried at sea so they can more easily take him into custody for questioning. Thats not exactly a "way out there" conspiracy

[sinewav]

And don't forget, its entirely possible they've captured him and said they killed/immediately burried at sea so they can more easily take him into custody for questioning.

That's a great idea! Maybe they can interrogate him as the the whereabouts of Bin Laden? I hope we didn't miss an opportunity to finally get this guy.

[compguygene]

Phyto. I am not some nutcase that can't support what I say. Everybody here seems to think I haven't researched both sides. I have no interest in debating my side, when the opposition does not have an open mind at all to what I would say. You and Lucifer have absolutely stated your views. You both have made it clear that you are not even willing to consider my views, which are based on Government documents that have been released via FOIA requests, history, and the accounts of real people's experiences, etc. You all have made your decisions. I could start a forum thread to debate this. But I have no interest in spending inordinate amounts of time and effort posting links to mainstream media articles, government documents, etc, only to have my every point dissed, and to suffer what would become annoying personal attacks. I am not some nutjob that hasn't spent tons of hours researching the thought behind these things.

So yeah, the nutjobs came out, and now will be silent!

[Mkay1]

Bin Laden uses wife to shield himself. Since this has not yet been brought up, what do you think of this (if you believe it)? I say he can't be a martyr if he did not go down with at least the honor of dying with "strength"(can't find correct wording for "<word>"). He tried to use his wife as a shield, and she was killed as a result. That seems cowardly to me.

[Desolate]

I heard it was just one of three woman present in the building that he used to shield himself

[Mkay1]

Yes. I didn't say a number, thought I should have.

[Clutch]

Is dignity the word you're lookin for?