Black Ops

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Phytotron
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Re: Black Ops

Post by Phytotron »

vogue wrote:
Plus, don't pirate songs. Human beings work hard to make them and need to eat something. If you don't want to support certain corporate labels or CEOs, simply neither play nor buy their music.
Yes, please don't do that or recording artists will be doomed to a life of only semi luxury. Won't someone think of the poor artists?!
Right, because the overwhelming majority of musicians are rich and famous and living in the lap of decadent luxury. It's definitely the norm.

:roll: Get a goddamn clue.

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Re: Black Ops

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I was joking. South Park anyone? That episode was hilarious, if you're familiar with the quote. :goatee:

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Re: Black Ops

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Phytotron wrote: Right, because the overwhelming majority of musicians are rich and famous and living in the lap of decadent luxury. It's definitely the norm.

:roll: Get a goddamn clue.
Well, since the record labels already screw 99% of recording artists out of royalties anyway, stealing the music doesn't hurt the artists at all: they were already screwed out of the money before their music was even recorded. The 1% that aren't screwed? Those are the big name acts.
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Re: Black Ops

Post by sinewav »

Lucifer wrote:...stealing the music doesn't hurt the artists at all: they were already screwed out of the money before their music was even recorded.
Yep. Reminds me of an article Steve Albini wrote years ago, perhaps you've read it too? Oh, here it is.

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Re: Black Ops

Post by Sinn »

I play Black Ops on the 360, I avoid a lot of games like this on the PC because they always seem to be full of hackers.
The truth is out there.

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Re: Black Ops

Post by nsh22 »

Real pros kill the hackers :P
Lucifer wrote:I think you got the wrong thread, this thread is the one where we're debating banning sinewav and dubStep until they have a threesome with dubbie's mother.

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Re: Black Ops

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sinewav wrote:
Lucifer wrote:...stealing the music doesn't hurt the artists at all: they were already screwed out of the money before their music was even recorded.
Yep. Reminds me of an article Steve Albini wrote years ago, perhaps you've read it too? Oh, here it is.
I hadn't read that one, heh. :) Plenty of industry-hating articles out there, though.
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Re: Black Ops

Post by Phytotron »

Here's the thing, all that—the claims of those who support music piracy for supposedly "noble" or "political" reasons (which is the insignificant minority of the 20-1 who are pirating versus purchasing music, and you know it; most just want free music—and anything else they can steal through torrents, etc., including software)—are reasons to change the system, to boycott corporate music, and support independent musicians and labels. It's not a legit rationalisation for getting unauthorised* free stuff. If you're not going to put forth any effort and corresponding financial backing into doing those things, then you haven't a leg to stand on in saying you're standing for something, or against "the man."

And, ironically, despite all the clamouring by the major labels and RIAA to the contrary, in the long run you're probably benefitting corporate music. Even if you're not actively supporting them (and I don't either), you are actively not supporting the smaller, independent musicians, labels, promoters, etc. Guess who's more fragile.

And, don't forget—and this isn't an insignificant point—you're also lending a hand in killing off local independent record stores. It's bad enough as it is, what with the buying power of the Wal-Marts, the Amazon.com's, and the paid downloads like iTunes.

And, you're also robbing yourself of the extended value of the hard copy. First, the obvious: quality. Uncompressed (and don't give me "open-source lossless compression"). It's not subject to corruption, accidental deletions, or a failed harddrive. I would be remiss if I didn't throw in the superiority of vinyl. Then there's the album artwork, its interior, and sometimes the packaging itself. There's the act of taking it out, the tactile experience, physically placing it in the relevant stereo equipment and turning it on—not just pointing and clicking, or scrolling. That all means something. It's the enrichment of the experience of which you're depriving yourself.

Even the acquisition of it in the first place. Here, again, I come back to local independent record stores. Allow me to quote Jason Noble on this:
One of our most precious meeting places is the humble and ever-changing record store. Almost any person reading this website probably knows of the life-and-death business struggle that our independent music stores are facing. So, without dwelling on the bad times, how about we remember all the good? If anything, a record store is the most open-minded and liberal place you can every find yourself, only bested by a library or a really great book store. Although economics can play a large role in what is stocked, in the end, a genuinely fine record store opens its shelves, its bins, its hidden hooks and knooks and skull-candled corners to all music with wonderous abandon. Between secondhand LPs, hand-printed fanzines, sharpie-drawn divider cards, incense-infused flags, shirts, patches, more flags, import mixtapes and homeburned four-song EPs, there is the freedom to stumble into the very best humans can express. Music may have its own hierarchies and clicks and “too cool” and all that—really, it accepts all the freaks and champions the lonely and disaffected and welcomes in the best joys and even lets you find something to agree with your parents about. Where else can you find the new Parlour album next to M.I.A. while searching for Osvaldo Golijov’s wonderful Oceana disc that features Kronos Quartet, which reminds me I need to pick up another copy of that Philip Glass Quartets CD they made in 1995, and wait do they maybe have a 12-inch of “Bullet With Butterfly Wings,” and while I’m getting to the used-vinyl section I might need to see if they have Ali Farka Touré’s In The Heart Of The Moon and Young Widows’ Old Wounds and Low’s Trust. It’s impossible to summarize how local record stores vastly contribute to music culture. We have to act and really support them. Those people behind the counter are living archives of something precious and human, the memory in the body of our collected songs.
As he says, it's impossible to summarise, and there truly is a great deal more. That goes for owning the actual recording, as well.

I've been against, and have refused support of, corporate music since long before the internet existed (well, in popular, commercial usage, of course). I'm not some "tool" defending rich rock, pop, and hip-hop stars (who, again, are very much the exception, not the rule—you're not hurting them). I will continue to financially support those involved in independent music.

Your position is, as I see it, not too far from saying, "99% of all actors come from Hollywood, and they're overpaid, so I'm not going to support theatre." Or, "99% of cuisine is fast food, and it's bad for you and destroying culture, therefore I won't eat at any restaurant." Or, "99% of software developers work for EA and Microsoft, who are evil, so I'm going to pirate all my software." Or, "politicians are corrupt, so I'm not going to vote or participate in democracy at all; just complain and freeload." No, not exactly the same, but close enough for effect.


* Obviously, if music is expressly provided, or encouraged to be 'pirated,' by the musicians themselves, then that's fine and dandy.

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Re: Black Ops

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Phytotron wrote:Here's the thing, all that—the claims of those who support music piracy for supposedly "noble" or "political" reasons (which is the insignificant minority of the 20-1 who are pirating versus purchasing music, and you know it; most just want free music—and anything else they can steal through torrents, etc., including software)—are reasons to change the system, to boycott corporate music, and support independent musicians and labels. It's not a legit rationalisation for getting unauthorised* free stuff. If you're not going to put forth any effort and corresponding financial backing into doing those things, then you haven't a leg to stand on in saying you're standing for something, or against "the man."
This is largely irrelevant, except the last bit. For me, the fight isn't just over all the evil horrible things the RIAA-affiliated record labels do (which, most of the smaller independent labels are also RIAA members). It's also over the technology itself, and the use thereof. I feel very strongly that sharing on peer to peer networks the music (and most of the other stuff, but not all) is perfectly ok, there's nothing wrong with it, and the big labels are fighting the technology to keep down the independent artists you're in such a hurry to promote.

It's a distribution system that could make superstars in a very grassroots fashion, and that's how it threatens the major record labels. It's the best thing that can happen to these smaller bands and labels, and by outwardly supporting the technology, my voice joins millions that tell the smaller bands and labels that we will support them this way. We will share their music with all of our friends (just like we always have), and we will go to their shows, and we'll spend money on things of value.

The ultimate in arrogance, imo, is when the record labels finally agreed to sell lossy, compressed versions of songs for the same price you can buy the physical uncompressed product with all the other things you talk about.
And, ironically, despite all the clamouring by the major labels and RIAA to the contrary, in the long run you're probably benefitting corporate music. Even if you're not actively supporting them (and I don't either), you are actively not supporting the smaller, independent musicians, labels, promoters, etc. Guess who's more fragile.
Indeed, in the heyday of napster, there were numerous independent studies that showed that p2p filesharing contributed to several record-breaking sales years for all the majors.

They didn't start feeling the pain until the boycott started. :)
And, you're also robbing yourself of the extended value of the hard copy. First, the obvious: quality. Uncompressed (and don't give me "open-source lossless compression").
I'm only tackling this paragraph because there's gross factual mistakes in it.
It's not subject to corruption, accidental deletions, or a failed harddrive. I would be remiss if I didn't throw in the superiority of vinyl.
So you've never picked up a CD and found it too scratched to play? Never had a CD somehow get snapped in pieces? Never seen one melt sitting on your car seat? And don't get me started on vinyl, those things were amazingly fragile. Corruption? Accidental deletions? You still subscribe to the myth that CDs never go bad? Really? In 2011?
Then there's the album artwork, its interior, and sometimes the packaging itself. There's the act of taking it out, the tactile experience, physically placing it in the relevant stereo equipment and turning it on—not just pointing and clicking, or scrolling. That all means something. It's the enrichment of the experience of which you're depriving yourself.
Except the smaller bands and labels usually can't afford to put much more than a sleeve with photos of the band in there....

Even the acquisition of it in the first place. Here, again, I come back to local independent record stores.
More record stores that don't have anything I'm looking for. The only surviving independent record store in Austin is packed with major label garbage. Their only redeeming trait is that I can listen to the garbage in listening booths located in the store: booths that the RIAA fought to have removed from record stores because it meant people could listen to the music without paying for it.

A lot of stuff I like is out of print, rare, or imported (which makes it rare in the US). My current favorite band, Tigertailz, was a band I discovered after their initial big star promotional period ended, and the CD I found was in the bargain bin with a damaged case. Found Xentrix the same way. Record stores are no help to me when they have to stock so much popular garbage just to stay in business.
I've been against, and have refused support of, corporate music since long before the internet existed (well, in popular, commercial usage, of course). I'm not some "tool" defending rich rock, pop, and hip-hop stars (who, again, are very much the exception, not the rule—you're not hurting them). I will continue to financially support those involved in independent music.
Then do so, but keep in mind that if a band has recorded on a label, it's probably still RIAA-affiliated.

I throw in there that I also won't support any band in any way that is looking to sign a record contract and go national. It's exactly the same way that I won't support anybody getting involved with cocaine or other drugs.
Your position is, as I see it, not too far from saying, "99% of all actors come from Hollywood, and they're overpaid, so I'm not going to support theatre." Or, "99% of cuisine is fast food, and it's bad for you and destroying culture, therefore I won't eat at any restaurant." Or, "99% of software developers work for EA and Microsoft, who are evil, so I'm going to pirate all my software." Or, "politicians are corrupt, so I'm not going to vote or participate in democracy at all; just complain and freeload." No, not exactly the same, but close enough for effect.
Then you're not understanding *my* position. :)
* Obviously, if music is expressly provided, or encouraged to be 'pirated,' by the musicians themselves, then that's fine and dandy.
They're almost never the copyright holders. So even if the musicians who don't own the copyrights to their own recordings encourage you to pirate their music, would you do it, knowing the record label owns the copyrights involved?

For me, you've missed some important details. For example, I don't pirate software. I use open source software, and contribute to its development. I don't read books from any publisher that doesn't offer free copies of some of their books, nor any publisher who uses DRM technology. The list goes on and on.....

If you really want to make a stink about copyright and power, why don't you ask Apple for the complete source code for all of their programs you rely on? Tell them you have a right to see it, to know that it's not mis-using your private information. Tell them you have a right to understand how it works, how it protects you, etc. Do you think they'll go for it?

Users have rights. It doesn't matter if they're people who listen to music or people who use software, and the same rights that we have for the usage of software apply to music, books, movies, etc. If you want to sway me with your position, get rid of the damn mac and try living a life where you actually guard those rights.
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Re: Black Ops

Post by Lord Pein »

Phytotron wrote: And, you're also robbing yourself of the extended value of the hard copy. First, the obvious: quality. Uncompressed (and don't give me "open-source lossless compression"). It's not subject to corruption, accidental deletions, or a failed harddrive. I would be remiss if I didn't throw in the superiority of vinyl. Then there's the album artwork, its interior, and sometimes the packaging itself. There's the act of taking it out, the tactile experience, physically placing it in the relevant stereo equipment and turning it on—not just pointing and clicking, or scrolling. That all means something. It's the enrichment of the experience of which you're depriving yourself.
1. Purchase an external hard drive.
2. Back up your data (not just your music).
3. ???
4. Profit!!!

There is the act of googling the song you wish to download, picking out your favorite torrent source or "file sharing" website. Then there's the act of the first play, realizing you downloaded the wrong version, giving you the opportunity to repeat the entire process! Once you have the correct version, there is the act of deciding which folder to put it in! Pointing, clicking, and scrolling does not require spending money on gas to get your music.

Oh yeah, and the album art can be found here:

http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&q=ba ... 80&bih=537

I <3 downloading music.
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Re: Black Ops

Post by Phytotron »

Lucifer wrote:(which, most of the smaller independent labels are also RIAA members) ... keep in mind that if a band has recorded on a label, it's probably still RIAA-affiliated.
Untrue. I've checked. http://www.riaaradar.com if you want to, too. I have a huge collection of albums released by labels with no affiliation with the RIAA.
It's a distribution system that could make superstars in a very grassroots fashion
Could. And a prominent argument we've all heard. Evidence that it has occurred in this pure fashion, in significant numbers, and that they're doing significantly better than they were before file sharing? Sorry, as I said, I've been involved in one way or another with underground/"indie"/non-mainstream/non-corporate/whatever music since well before teh internetz. There hasn't been some mass upswelling of indie bands and musicians who've come upon massive popularity and income. By and large, the situation for independent musicians is no better than it was before. We all still have our day jobs. In some respects, it's worse now, much the same way as it is for independent record stores. Again, 20-1.
We will share their music with all of our friends (just like we always have)
Not like you always have. You can't claim with a straight face that the number of cassette dubs of a given record even begins to approach the number of music files shared over the internet.
The ultimate in arrogance, imo, is when the record labels finally agreed to sell lossy, compressed versions of songs for the same price you can buy the physical uncompressed product with all the other things you talk about.
And, of course, I object to that, as well. Don't think I've ever indicated any support for something like that; in fact, the contrary.
You still subscribe to the myth that CDs never go bad?
Still? I never have. I've also never seen an entire physical record collection disappear into nothingness except in the rare case of a disaster.
Except the smaller bands and labels usually can't afford to put much more than a sleeve with photos of the band in there....
Untrue, and I have a sizable portion of my record collection to show it. (I also have as many or more old record albums going back decades from major, or formerly major, record labels with less than that.)
More record stores that don't have anything I'm looking for.
Ask for it. They'll be more than happy to get it. They can oftentimes even track down those out-of-print, rare, and import records—at no extra charge.
The only surviving independent record store in Austin...
Huh?
http://www.associatedcontent.com/articl ... tml?cat=33
Waterloo, Antone's, Backspin, End of an Ear, Cheapo Disc?
A lot of stuff I like is out of print...
So obviously doesn't apply to this conversation.

stuff about copyright
I didn't bring up copyright. Related, but separate subject.

Aaaand, we've gone over most of that before. And I don't really care to get (or go further) into this when you and I both know we're both going to be stubborn on this subject—something quite evident after having re-read the aforementioned argument from a few years ago. (And also considering things seemed to have mostly smoothed out between us lately.)

(Although, incidentally, since you "called me out" on it, I got this Mac used; see statement by Z-Man above. Come to think of it, I'm not sure I've ever given Apple a cent, personally.)
Lord Mecca wrote:blah blah
Lord Pein wrote:Dude, forget it. I shouldn't have started acknowledging you again, my mistake.
Yeah, go back to that, please. I definitely see no opportunity for an intelligent debate with you on this subject (or hardly any other, for that matter).
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Re: Black Ops

Post by Lord Pein »

Phytotron wrote:
Lord Mecca wrote:blah blah
Lord Pein wrote:Dude, forget it. I shouldn't have started acknowledging you again, my mistake.
Yeah, go back to that, please. I definitely see no opportunity for an intelligent debate with you on this subject (or hardly any other, for that matter).
*Points out the unnecessary comments as well as changing my name*
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Re: Black Ops

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Phytotron wrote:Untrue. I've checked. http://www.riaaradar.com if you want to, too. I have a huge collection of albums released by labels with no affiliation with the RIAA.
It has been a few years since I last looked at that site. :)
It's a distribution system that could make superstars in a very grassroots fashion
Could. And a prominent argument we've all heard. Evidence that it has occurred in this pure fashion, in significant numbers, and that they're doing significantly better than they were before file sharing?
Well, there's two parts of the question.

First, lack of evidence: there's evidence that's all open to interpretations. I argue frequently that Metallica used the pre-digital version of P2P to establish their fame, and then turned against the same strategies when they turned against Napster. But that's subject to interpretation. What I feel down to the core of my being is that the technology is too immature, even now. It's been beat down and put in a situation where development has focused on making the underlying protocols more reliable and faster, rather than on making the experience better. Modern P2P search engines are only barely advanced compared to the original filename matching that Napster had.

Second: Business sense. I'll discuss this further below.
Sorry, as I said, I've been involved in one way or another with underground/"indie"/non-mainstream/non-corporate/whatever music since well before teh internetz. There hasn't been some mass upswelling of indie bands and musicians who've come upon massive popularity and income. By and large, the situation for independent musicians is no better than it was before. We all still have our day jobs. In some respects, it's worse now, much the same way as it is for independent record stores. Again, 20-1.
The industry as a whole, with or without filesharing, is hostile to independents. Always has been. How do we break the industry as a whole? We have to break the major labels' hold on it, tear down the payola system that keeps independent artists off the radio, etc. Even KLBJ, the local station that supports local bands (and the bigger local acts are regional celebrities that don't need day jobs) takes payola because without it, they'd go out of business.
We will share their music with all of our friends (just like we always have)
Not like you always have. You can't claim with a straight face that the number of cassette dubs of a given record even begins to approach the number of music files shared over the internet.
You're right. So I can easily claim the influence is much greater. When a friend of mine gave me copies of the four metallica albums that were out at the time, I didn't buy any metallica CDs for several years. Then, in the space of about two years, I bought all five that were out, as well as 4 concert tickets. Had the concert not sucked balls, along with the fifth CD, I had plenty of disposable income that Metallica could have claimed.

There's plenty of evidence that this little anecdote actually does scale up to millions. Like I said previously, P2P filesharing contributed significantly to several record-breaking years for the major record labels. It's not piracy that hurt them, it's the boycott that kicked in.
You still subscribe to the myth that CDs never go bad?
Still? I never have. I've also never seen an entire physical record collection disappear into nothingness except in the rare case of a disaster.
Small kids. :) I've seen lots of CDs get destroyed, en masse even, by little kids.
Except the smaller bands and labels usually can't afford to put much more than a sleeve with photos of the band in there....
Untrue, and I have a sizable portion of my record collection to show it. (I also have as many or more old record albums going back decades from major, or formerly major, record labels with less than that.)
The albums don't count, the product was different back then. (Maybe newer albums count, since vinyl still has a following....)

Also largely irrelevant. In a world with filesharing, whether it's illegal or not, bands need to realize that the music isn't the entire product. It never has been, but now technology forces the issue.

In my experience with bands in Austin, which is both large and small experience, bands just don't "get it". If you want to make music and perform, you can do that. No problem.

If you want to make a living, then you need to realize you have a small business and treat it that way. I haven't seen any local band do that. Most of them have the marketing strategy "get the name out". Well, sorry, that's not good enough. You linked an article showing exactly how ridiculous the name problem is. You need to generate buzz and get people in the door, and that requires real strategy and business sense. Instead of hiring a manager, hire a marketing company. For real. And like any small business, you need to set particular revenue goals (realistically), strategies to achieve them, and then work your asses off for it. And realize the whole time how diluted the market is. In Austin, especially, but many cities are actually much the same, I can go out any day of the week and see a band that plays just about any kind of music you can think of. What makes YOUR band so special that I'll want to plan to go see you? What are your revenue streams? Like it or not, filesharing is there, and you need to account for it. Will you fight it, and piss off many of your prospective fans, or will you embrace it and just not count it as a revenue stream? The traditional streams are obvious: merchandise and cover charges (aka ticket sales for bigger bands, tips for smaller bands). What else can you do? You need to have a plan, like a real business plan, and work it. Independents have the opportunity to pursue royalties (local advertising companies need musicians!), contract work, etc. Then there's playing parties and so forth. Always watch the bottom line, never pay the bar tab from the band's revenue, etc.

Sadly, most independent bands have no business sense. So whatcha gonna do, then? I know, you can stand on stage, play a set of whiny music, and then beg the crowd to tell their friends about you. That seems to be what pretty much everybody does....

And if you want to be a star, you have to sign with the majors. That's the only way it's going to happen.

In any case, the only way to truly ensure your artistic integrity is protected is to keep your day job. That's what capitalism means to creative people.
More record stores that don't have anything I'm looking for.
Ask for it. They'll be more than happy to get it. They can oftentimes even track down those out-of-print, rare, and import records—at no extra charge.
Tried. This isn't my first rodeo. :)
The only surviving independent record store in Austin...
Huh?
http://www.associatedcontent.com/articl ... tml?cat=33
Waterloo, Antone's, Backspin, End of an Ear, Cheapo Disc?
Antone's is a bar that includes a small record store (that mostly focuses on vinyl, iirc). Backspin was out of business, or so I heard. Cheapo Disc is a "shack", but has the advantage of carrying lots of local artists, and last I heard was out of business..... Never heard of End of an Ear.

Waterloo is still around, but they're struggling. I'll be surprised if they're still in business two years from now. Hell, I was surprised they were still in business THIS year.
Aaaand, we've gone over most of that before.
Oh come on, where else are these kids going to see two diametrically opposed points of view on this subject that are also well-informed and well-thought? :)
(Although, incidentally, since you "called me out" on it, I got this Mac used; see statement by Z-Man above. Come to think of it, I'm not sure I've ever given Apple a cent, personally.)
All the side effects you talked about for pirating music apply to you and your Mac. You're still supporting Apple one way or the other, whether you give them money or not. :)
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Search and destroy

Post by F0RC3 »

wusup guys. I know that some of you at least play call of duty black ops and i was wondering if any one plays search and destroy on the ps3. i usually play search and destroy or domination.

also i finally just got the theater linked to my youtube account a day or so ago. and can now upload 30 second blackops clips to youtube from theatre. and here is my first one, check it out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JP5b18wSh9Y

It's S&D on Array.

so if anyone wants to play some black ops with me on PS3 add me. my PSN ID is: XxFlarEBursTxX

Edit: thankyou for merging my topic with this one, not. this thread is more for the pc version of blackops while i was trying to search out for ps3 users, **** you.

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