age, ageism, maturity...

[Olive]

im a narcist

age or personality? Let is be age, please.

[chrisd]

LOL @ Olive

But is there anything wrong with narcism? Time to read the prologue of The Alchemist by Paulo Coelho.

[compguygene]

LOL @ Olive

But is there anything wrong with narcissism? Time to read the prologue of The Alchemist by Paulo Coelho.

I would say that there is plenty wrong with narcissism. But, I am willing to accept that people willingly choose to be narcissistic. As a Christian, I would have to take the position of disapproving of the inherent sin of said choice, but loving and not judging the person. So, in a way, my position, which at first glance is judgmental and quite the opposite of Chrisd's, really is different, but compatible.

[chrisd]

I would say that there is plenty wrong with narcissism. But, I am willing to accept that people willingly choose to be narcissistic. As a Christian, I would have to take the position of disapproving of the inherent sin of said choice, but loving and not judging the person. So, in a way, my position, which at first glance is judgmental and quite the opposite of Chrisd's, really is different, but compatible.

"disapproving of the inherent sin" vs. "not judging the person".... It is not possible to have both attitudes at the same time. They are contradictory. Here one clearly sees why subscribing to any of the mass religions is a very inefficient way of having a spiritual life. All of them immerse the poor sap that falls for them in contradictory beliefs thus weakening that person.

[Slov]

i think we can all agree on something

slov is mature!!

[MrsKsr]

I would say that there is plenty wrong with narcissism. But, I am willing to accept that people willingly choose to be narcissistic. As a Christian, I would have to take the position of disapproving of the inherent sin of said choice, but loving and not judging the person. So, in a way, my position, which at first glance is judgmental and quite the opposite of Chrisd's, really is different, but compatible.

"disapproving of the inherent sin" vs. "not judging the person".... It is not possible to have both attitudes at the same time. They are contradictory. Here one clearly sees why subscribing to any of the mass religions is a very inefficient way of having a spiritual life. All of them immerse the poor sap that falls for them in contradictory beliefs thus weakening that person.

Nope, it is very possible to not approve of something and not have it affect your opinion of someone. There are plenty of examples for this, but I'm not gonna go there, not the thread for it. But not liking something someone does doesn't mean you must persecute someone for thinking differently than you. If you honestly believe that all religions teach this judgemental way of life, especially Christianity, you haven't met any real Christians. There is a big difference between being Christian and running your mouth, misinterpreting the Bible and pretending. Just saying.

[compguygene]

I would say that there is plenty wrong with narcissism. But, I am willing to accept that people willingly choose to be narcissistic. As a Christian, I would have to take the position of disapproving of the inherent sin of said choice, but loving and not judging the person. So, in a way, my position, which at first glance is judgmental and quite the opposite of Chrisd's, really is different, but compatible.

"disapproving of the inherent sin" vs. "not judging the person".... It is not possible to have both attitudes at the same time. They are contradictory. Here one clearly sees why subscribing to any of the mass religions is a very inefficient way of having a spiritual life. All of them immerse the poor sap that falls for them in contradictory beliefs thus weakening that person.

If you think that I am a follower of mainline Christianity, the modern day Pharisees and Saducees, you are mistaken. So, let me start this response by Illustrating the basis of my spiritual beliefs. I really hate to label myself a Christian. To quote Oscar Wilde "I would consider being a Christian, except for how Christians act". I couldn't agree more. So, let's start this off by me saying that I am a follow of the teachings of Jesus Christ of Nazareth.
As a follower of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, I also recognize that you and I have 2 very divergent viewpoints in terms of morality and values. I do believe in the existence of an absolute moral code, you do not. This is something that I am willing to happily agree to disagree with you about. However, I tire of people that do not have an absolute set of values and morals being intolerant of me and those who hold spiritual beliefs like me. I am more than happy to do nothing to impede you sharing your beliefs, and to show you love, as I have always done. From my viewpoint, we are all God's creation, and should be respected and loved as such!
From the viewpoint of one who holds to a moral code, and to the concept of sin, as a follower of Jesus Christ, let me expose to you some of what he said about these issues. "Judge not lest you be judged", "As you forgive others, so you shall be forgiven", "Love your enemies, anyone can love their friends. But I tell you it is greater to love your enemies as you love yourself"". Jesus was a man that spent his time among the religious leaders of Judaism, telling them what they were doing wrong. He spent much time around regular people, showing them love and how to be forgiven their sins. He did all these things in loving, comapassionate ways. In doing so, he set quite an example to follow. Even leaders of other religions that do not accept all the he taught, accept him as a real example.
It is one thing to not agree with the poor choices someone has made in their life. It is another thing to judge them, and not love them. I agree that such choices are made in the heart. However, I would say that one can have these views without judging. It begins, in Christianity, with the acknowledgement that all, including oneself, have sinned and fallen short of being worthy of heaven and God. So, in the Christian path, we have this same disapproval of sin toward ourselves. However, as one who has acknowledged that the only way to eternal salvation is through us having asked Jesus Christ to forgive us our sins. Once having done so, we have the eternal security of a relationship with God on this earth, and in heaven, for eternity. This is so exciting for us, that we wish to share this truth, with all the world. It completes us, as God, via the indwelling presence of his Holy Spirit, lives within us.
Ultimately, for the purposes of this post, it enables us to fully show love to all people that live in this world, unconditionally. For as I am sure that you are well aware, love that is conditional is truly not love at all.

[sinewav]

...as a follower of Jesus Christ, let me expose to you some of what he said about these issues. "Judge not lest you be judged", "As you forgive others, so you shall be forgiven", "Love your enemies, anyone can love their friends. But I tell you it is greater to love your enemies as you love yourself"".

Jesus was a copycat. Buddha said all those things hundreds of years before Jesus. Congratulations, you're a Buddhist.

[compguygene]

Well, I am not going to argue the facts, because what you are saying is true. Unlike most Christians, I have studied Buddhism, Hinduism, and a few other of the world's religions. However, there are 3 significant differences between Christianity and the rest.

1. There are a number of things in Christianity's holy book that have been authenticated by science that are not really found in any other ancient texts. Here are a few examples. The method that the Jews used to calculate the new moon is based on the first chapter of Genesis, the number used is accurate to 4 decimal places as compared to the number used by NASA. The other cultures contemporary to Judaism don't even come close to that. In the 16th century, Jewish theologians took another good look at the first chapter of Genesis, and concluded that the age of the earth was approximately 4.5 billion years. Scientists peg that age at approximately 4.54 billion years based on geological data.

2. All of the other world's religions show that the path to "enlightenment", "nirvana", or "heaven" is one that is based on doing good deeds and/or doing things to become "one with god". Christianity says that God is too holy for us sinful humans to ever be one with, except by seeking forgiveness from "God's Son" which is one expression of a 3-part God that was incarnate on this earth, and sacrificed to pay the price for all of our sins.

3. Christianity is unique in its view of sin. Christianity says all have sinned, and you cannot be perfect enough to ever please God. This just relates back to number 2.

Other than that, I would agree to the vast similarities to other of the world's religions.

[Lucifer]

First, for chrisd: The first rule of parenting is "Condemn the action, not the child." It's really not hard to take a view of behavior that separates judging the person and judging the behavior.

Well, I am not going to argue the facts, because what you are saying is true. Unlike most Christians, I have studied Buddhism, Hinduism, and a few other of the world's religions. However, there are 3 significant differences between Christianity and the rest.

1. There are a number of things in Christianity's holy book that have been authenticated by science that are not really found in any other ancient texts. Here are a few examples. The method that the Jews used to calculate the new moon is based on the first chapter of Genesis, the number used is accurate to 4 decimal places as compared to the number used by NASA. The other cultures contemporary to Judaism don't even come close to that. In the 16th century, Jewish theologians took another good look at the first chapter of Genesis, and concluded that the age of the earth was approximately 4.5 billion years. Scientists peg that age at approximately 4.54 billion years based on geological data.

And that method (of calculating the new moon) has been shown by archeologists to actually come from Greek society. In addition, the Incas and Mayas both had more accurate calendars that also included solar/lunar eclipses, to say nothing of the Chinese.

Oops.

2. All of the other world's religions show that the path to "enlightenment", "nirvana", or "heaven" is one that is based on doing good deeds and/or doing things to become "one with god". Christianity says that God is too holy for us sinful humans to ever be one with, except by seeking forgiveness from "God's Son" which is one expression of a 3-part God that was incarnate on this earth, and sacrificed to pay the price for all of our sins.

But this is a *bad* thing! The idea that we're horrible people and the only way we can be redeemed is to KISS JESUS' FAT BUTT is a BAD THING!

3. Christianity is unique in its view of sin. Christianity says all have sinned, and you cannot be perfect enough to ever please God. This just relates back to number 2.

Which is also a bad thing. If you're never going to be good enough, you're much easier to control.

What's notable, however, is that those two ideas are also in Islam, and as part of the caste system in India, they apply to the three lower castes. And they are in some of the other worldly religions, you're just looking in the wrong places.

[chrisd]

Nope, it is very possible to not approve of something and not have it affect your opinion of someone. There are plenty of examples for this, but I'm not gonna go there, not the thread for it.

When one does not approve of what somebody does it ALWAYS affects ones opinion of that person. At the moment of the judgment that person is somebody who does something WRONG. This may not have a long term effect but there ALWAYS is a short term effect.

If you honestly believe that all religions teach this judgemental way of life, especially Christianity, you haven't met any real Christians.

This is not at all what I have been saying. I have been saying that in all the major religions there are contradictions and/or gross inefficiencies. Living in contradiction and/or inefficiency is not the most powerful way to live for a human being, so every major religion weakens the person. Well, if a person is at a very low point, such as being suicidal or depressed, religion might actually help but for a person in a position that is higher than that any of the mass religions is not helping at all.

Actually, I know Christianity and the various kinds of Christians in it quite well..... I am not at all speaking from a position of ignorance.

[Lucifer]

When one does not approve of what somebody does it ALWAYS affects ones opinion of that person. At the moment of the judgment that person is somebody who does something WRONG. This may not have a long term effect but there ALWAYS is a short term effect.

No it doesn't. That's just not true. It's very easy to condemn the act and not the person. At the moment that you judge the act, you accept that the person who did it made a mistake. You do not judge people for making mistakes, everybody does it, it's like accepting that the sun is bright. A mistake isn't good or bad, it just is.

It's really not that difficult. Parents have been doing it for centuries, but obviously not the ones who say "bad boy/girl! You're in so much trouble!"

[Lord Pein]

It's very easy to condemn the act and not the person.

Interesting to see this point made on these forums...

[chrisd]

If you think that I am a follower of mainline Christianity, the modern day Pharisees and Saducees, you are mistaken. So, let me start this response by Illustrating the basis of my spiritual beliefs. I really hate to label myself a Christian. To quote Oscar Wilde "I would consider being a Christian, except for how Christians act". I couldn't agree more. So, let's start this off by me saying that I am a follow of the teachings of Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

So, you have thought for yourself about your beliefs and decided what is true for you? That is great CompGuyGene!!!!!!!!! We should all do that!!!!!!!!!!

As a follower of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, I also recognize that you and I have 2 very divergent viewpoints in terms of morality and values. I do believe in the existence of an absolute moral code, you do not. This is something that I am willing to happily agree to disagree with you about.

That is great, CompGuyGene!!!!!!!!! Let us happily agree to disagree about this!!!!!!!!!!!!!

However, I tire of people that do not have an absolute set of values and morals being intolerant of me and those who hold spiritual beliefs like me. I am more than happy to do nothing to impede you sharing your beliefs, and to show you love, as I have always done. From my viewpoint, we are all God's creation, and should be respected and loved as such!

I am not intolerant!!!!!!!!! I am just sharing my wisdom with all who want to listen!!!!!!!! Noting inconsistencies in the beliefs of others is a form of sharing wisdom. Of course you are free to not consider an inconsistency what I consider to be an inconsistency. But to prefix every noticing of an inconsistency with "In my opinion this is an inconsistency" is just weasel words and I do not like weasel words. I like clear expressions of my opinion. I think it is great that you view all of us as Gods creation to be respected and loved!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

From the viewpoint of one who holds to a moral code, and to the concept of sin, as a follower of Jesus Christ, let me expose to you some of what he said about these issues. "Judge not lest you be judged", "As you forgive others, so you shall be forgiven", "Love your enemies, anyone can love their friends. But I tell you it is greater to love your enemies as you love yourself"". Jesus was a man that spent his time among the religious leaders of Judaism, telling them what they were doing wrong. He spent much time around regular people, showing them love and how to be forgiven their sins. He did all these things in loving, comapassionate ways. In doing so, he set quite an example to follow. Even leaders of other religions that do not accept all the he taught, accept him as a real example.

I think Jesus is overrated and these examples, great as they are, only show a partial picture. Jesus also talks quite a lot about eternal punishment and the gnashing of teeth. This shows that even for a rather great person like Jesus it is not possible to both believe in the ultimate existence of evil (i.e., the belief that the concepts of good and evil exist even from the perspective of God) and to avoid problematic concepts like that of eternal punishment. As such I think Gandhi is a more impressive person than Jesus. But in my opinion Gandhi thinks too positively about the religions.

It is one thing to not agree with the poor choices someone has made in their life. It is another thing to judge them, and not love them. I agree that such choices are made in the heart. However, I would say that one can have these views without judging.

This becomes very problematic. If the "poor choice" of somebody is a bad move in chess that is going to do no ultimate harm it is easy to keep showing a loving attitude to them. However, what if one believes that their exist choices that are so poor that it will land a person in hell to be tormented for all of eternity? Then loving a person would mean that them getting into hell is completely unacceptable and one would need to do everything in ones power to keep that person from doing it. However, doing everything in ones power to withhold a person is not a loving action at all. On the other hand, maybe you don't believe in hell. If every mistake is ultimately righted than what does it even mean that evil exists? It is just like a bad move in chess that has no ultimate consequence but might just cause some temporary pain. There is a big catch-22 in sets of beliefs like this...... That is why I call them contradictory. In practice this contradiction is solved by watering down either side of the catch-22 and not really believing in it. Nice Christians water down the belief in hell and believe in hell by acknowledging purely theoretically that it exists but never imagining that a person they have known could possibly be there. This may be nice, but it does not seem very honest.....

It begins, in Christianity, with the acknowledgement that all, including oneself, have sinned and fallen short of being worthy of heaven and God. [... snip the rest of the explanation...]

I am well aware that this is one of the ways in which Christianity is commonly summarized. In my opinion this set of beliefs is actually contradictory as explained above.

Ultimately, for the purposes of this post, it enables us to fully show love to all people that live in this world, unconditionally. For as I am sure that you are well aware, love that is conditional is truly not love at all.

It is great that we both know this fact, CompGuyGene!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[chrisd]

First, for chrisd: The first rule of parenting is "Condemn the action, not the child." It's really not hard to take a view of behavior that separates judging the person and judging the behavior.

Well, mainstream parenting is a game of sorts. The parent pretends to be condemning the action for the purpose of training the child. If the parent would actually condemn the action it would hurt the relation between parent and child. Of course, the latter also happens quite often in practice: there are more than a few bad relations between parents and children. Not that I am to be considered an expert in child rearing. Many of the people with these muddy and self-contradictory beliefs might well be better parents and given the fact that I am gay, it is rather unlikely that my opinions on parenting are ever going to be tested in practice.