age, ageism, maturity...

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gawdzilla
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Re: age, ageism, maturity...

Post by gawdzilla »

Lord Pein wrote:
compguygene wrote:I would say that I, since I became fully aware of my own feelings, have actively chosen to only go with the attraction for females..
This is why I asked that question. Not sure if you share the same opinion as Liz; but if you meant "choice" as in he chose to be gay (assuming that's what he came out as), your thoughts are wrong.

^ Hope that made sense, let me know if it didn't.

If you are choosing to only "go with" your attraction for females, you are still bisexual.
where did i say its a choice to be gay

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Lucifer
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Re: age, ageism, maturity...

Post by Lucifer »

Phytotron wrote:Thing is, you would, I presume, like to interpret that as, "I can do whatever I want and get away with it, so long as I say/believe I'm a good person!" That's faulty reasoning. I also put this to Lucifer on the principle: First time someone makes a "mistake" for not knowing any better, fine. After that, they're supposed to know better (where it involves avoidable behaviour, as opposed to clumsiness or something, obviously) and should increasingly be held responsible for their infractions.

I'm curious about the logical extensions of your position. If someone exhibits an objectionable behaviour repeatedly and deliberately, at what point do you cease absolving them of it?
Never. People are responsible for their bad behavior. Generally speaking, in my own world anyway, when people don't take responsibility for their bad behavior, they're no longer protected by the "condemn the act, not the person" mentality.
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chrisd
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Re: age, ageism, maturity...

Post by chrisd »

Lucifer wrote:Never. People are responsible for their bad behavior. Generally speaking, in my own world anyway, when people don't take responsibility for their bad behavior, they're no longer protected by the "condemn the act, not the person" mentality.
This is inconsistent with what you have been saying earlier about it being great when people who are against homosexuality would "just" condemn the act and not the person. If repetitive behavior is a justification to condemn the person for you, it also has to be for everybody else. Since a person who is homosexual is probably going to repeat homosexual behavior, it it is okay to condemn the act, it is by this logic also okay to condemn the person after they have done it a few times.

It seems we cannot avoid the conclusion that if we assume right and wrong actually exist, also having a false idea about right and wrong would be wrong. This is a highly problematic conclusion because it is generally not thought to be morally wrong to be ignorant. Of course, I have already been offering the solution out of this dilemma. This solution is that there is no reality in morality but that it is no more than mucking up an emotional reaction of appreciation or disappreciation with rationalizations that may sound rational but are ultimately untenable when one thinks about the logical conclusions.

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Lord Pein
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Re: age, ageism, maturity...

Post by Lord Pein »

gawdzilla wrote: where did i say its a choice to be gay
Sorry for the confusion.

I meant was he sharing your opinion of the lifestyle being a choice (+1 to chrisd on his post about that btw), or was he saying it was a choice to be gay.
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Re: age, ageism, maturity...

Post by nsh22 »

when did this become a discussion on homosexuality? and why?
Lucifer wrote:I think you got the wrong thread, this thread is the one where we're debating banning sinewav and dubStep until they have a threesome with dubbie's mother.

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Lucifer
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Re: age, ageism, maturity...

Post by Lucifer »

chrisd wrote:
Lucifer wrote:Never. People are responsible for their bad behavior. Generally speaking, in my own world anyway, when people don't take responsibility for their bad behavior, they're no longer protected by the "condemn the act, not the person" mentality.
This is inconsistent with what you have been saying earlier about it being great when people who are against homosexuality would "just" condemn the act and not the person. If repetitive behavior is a justification to condemn the person for you, it also has to be for everybody else. Since a person who is homosexual is probably going to repeat homosexual behavior, it it is okay to condemn the act, it is by this logic also okay to condemn the person after they have done it a few times.
I'm not sure you're thinking this through. But let me be absolutely clear about something first (since it's possible you haven't picked this up from my other posts on the subject): I don't think homosexual behavior is bad. I don't want to go into it too much, but I *am* a straight person who wants to end discrimination against homosexuals.

Ok, with that out of the way...

Condemning a person for the act is still different from holding them responsible for it. Take two completely different views on the same situation: A person steals something for drug money.

1) That person is irresponsible and bad and needs to do hard time for his crime. He shouldn't be doing drugs, he shouldn't be stealing, and he needs to pay a debt to society for being such a Bad Person.

2) That person obviously has a drug problem, which is usually a symptom of some sort of serious mental health issue, possibly childhood abuse, maybe something else. We should offer him treatment for the drug problem, and try to find out what else can be done so he can lead a happy, healthy life.

Which of these views do you think I agree with?
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Re: age, ageism, maturity...

Post by chrisd »

Lucifer wrote:I'm not sure you're thinking this through.
Actually, I can assure you that I am thinking this through..... Quite thoroughly, in fact.
Lucifer wrote:I don't think homosexual behavior is bad.
I had noticed this ;-). I think it is rather cute that you want to assure me of this but I already know..... lol! Actually, I am not at all not discussing your attitude and/or behavior, as you seem to be thinking. I am discussing the way you talk about your attitude. It is quite possible to behave in great ways yet to not be able to coherently express what you are doing. Like the bus driver who can be a great bus driver but has no idea how an engine actually works and when he talks about the inner workings of the bus, he doesn't get one single fact right and starts uttering a highly incoherent word salad. It surely is not that bad with you, but I am a bit of a philosopher so I am obsessed with describing everything succinctly and without contradiction. I also sometimes enjoy jumping on each and every contradiction that I see ;-). Not because I think you are bad, but because I think you are incoherent in your descriptions ;-), but apart from that I do not bite.... mostly.... (that was a joke ;-)).
Lucifer wrote:Condemning a person for the act is still different from holding them responsible for it.
Surely that is true, but it does not really apply to what I was saying.
Lucifer wrote:Which of these views do you think I agree with?
You know.... You don't have to prove that you are a good person, I was already assuming that. lol!

gawdzilla
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Re: age, ageism, maturity...

Post by gawdzilla »

you can say you don't like the words "gay lifestyle" but thats what its called if you are having sexual and romantic relationships with the same gender, living with someone of the same gender having children with them etc

hence why i said the lifestyle is a choice, the option of choosing it isn't because not all of us desire it so no i don't think homosexuality is a choice only morons and ignorant people believe that

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Lucifer
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Re: age, ageism, maturity...

Post by Lucifer »

Actually, I read the words "gay lifestyle" as a different sort of lifestyle than you meant. I thought you meant the stereotypical gay lifestyle: hanging out in gay bars, having sex with random people in rest stops and airport bathrooms, etc.

What you actually meant isn't a choice, imo. Your only choice is to be gay, or be celibate and live a life devoid of a particular kind of love that most people are genetically compelled to pursue. That's like saying a rape victim has a choice: they can lay there and take it, or fight back and lose. That's no choice.
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INW
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Re: age, ageism, maturity...

Post by INW »

Lucifer wrote:Actually, I read the words "gay lifestyle" as a different sort of lifestyle than you meant. I thought you meant the stereotypical gay lifestyle: hanging out in gay bars, having sex with random people in rest stops and airport bathrooms, etc.

What you actually meant isn't a choice, imo. Your only choice is to be gay, or be celibate and live a life devoid of a particular kind of love that most people are genetically compelled to pursue. That's like saying a rape victim has a choice: they can lay there and take it, or fight back and lose. That's no choice.
I have always seen the gay lifestyle as hanging out with a bunch of girls and going shopping all day.

You know what they say: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyFSdj1J5Vw
Anyway, some great discussion in this topic.

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Re: age, ageism, maturity...

Post by sinewav »

Lucifer wrote:What you actually meant isn't a choice, imo.
You're right, it's not much of a choice at all. And I think that's the heart of why so many LGBT teens decide their "choice" is lifelong pain and suffering or death. I also hate that we have a term such as gay-lifestyle. Culturally, this "lifestyle" is a place of belonging and refuge for many homosexuals and helps them deal with how shitty the world treats them. But not all find this a comfortable situation.

I had a close friend who was gay. We worked together. At work, you could clearly see he was a gay man. But when I would go hang out with him and his boyfriend and the "gay community", my friend and his mate looked like as straight as me. They resented the gay culture and the absurd stereotypes some gays embraced and it caused them a lot of dissatisfaction. It seemed that even in this welcoming gay community, lifestyle, whatever you want to call it, they were constantly challenged to prove their homosexuality and advocate for their rights when really they just wanted to be left alone - to not be gay or straight, but to just "be". It made me very sad to see them stuck in-between worlds. Eventually my friend got seriously depressed and withdrawn and we lost contact with each other, and I really hope he found peace.

gawdzilla
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Re: age, ageism, maturity...

Post by gawdzilla »

Lucifer wrote:Actually, I read the words "gay lifestyle" as a different sort of lifestyle than you meant. I thought you meant the stereotypical gay lifestyle: hanging out in gay bars, having sex with random people in rest stops and airport bathrooms, etc.

What you actually meant isn't a choice, imo. Your only choice is to be gay, or be celibate and live a life devoid of a particular kind of love that most people are genetically compelled to pursue. That's like saying a rape victim has a choice: they can lay there and take it, or fight back and lose. That's no choice.
no i didn't mean that

you can say its your opinion that it isn't a choice, but it's a fact that choosing that lifestyle IS a choice, otherwise there wouldn't be people who stay in the closet their entire life, they CHOSE that

not saying it's an easy one but you know what i mean

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Lord Pein
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Re: age, ageism, maturity...

Post by Lord Pein »

sinewav wrote: And I think that's the heart of why so many LGBT teens decide their "choice" is lifelong pain and suffering or death.
No, retarded high school/middle school students who care way too much about everything that doesn't matter (the victims included) is the heart of why so many LGBT teens suffer. It's not just LGBT students, it's pretty much anyone who doesn't fit in (sortof, it's hard to come up with an absolute reason because many high school communities vary in tolerance/acceptance/bullying/cliques/souljagirl).

My high school community was great, there were 0 cliques (of course there were groups of friends who regularly hung out together; but you could have no trouble at all sitting at a random lunch table every day and feeling like you belong (sorry if that's hard to understand)). Apparently, between like 2000 and 2005, my high school had a number of people who were out (mind you, this was a Catholic high school). When I went there (2005 (fall) to 2009), there were 0 out people. I always got the vibe (I think my class started the trend) while I was there that if anyone were to come out, they would be bullied (which I don't have the time or tolerance for), so I didn't come out (fail on everyone who didn't know though, fail).

One of my friends who is in high school right now is one of many who are out, nobody seems to care at his school (except for those who are in the closet afraid of "losing face" if they come out).

The last quote was from Saffia. Trolol.

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Lucifer
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Re: age, ageism, maturity...

Post by Lucifer »

gawdzilla wrote: you can say its your opinion that it isn't a choice, but it's a fact that choosing that lifestyle IS a choice, otherwise there wouldn't be people who stay in the closet their entire life, they CHOSE that
Sure, and when my ex-wife CHOSE not to fight back while the guy raped her and gave her chlamydia, it was fine, it was a choice, and it was hers to make.

Right?

No, I don't think so. It is unacceptable to have any portion of your population facing a "choice" where they can either live in misery by hiding their own selves from the world, or they can live in misery by being a part of a repressed and brutalized class of citizens. If misery are your two "choices", then it's not a choice.

When did you choose to live a heterosexual lifestyle? Oh, right, you didn't *have* to make a choice.
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Re: age, ageism, maturity...

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