Evolution

owned · Post by **owned** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 12:45 am

Apparently the Vatican now not only says that evolution is true, but they say they knew it all along.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/commen ... 705331.ece

Please don't turn this into a god/no god argument.

Post by **epsy** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 6:34 am

I wonder how their version of big bang will be, someday.

Jonathan · Post by **Jonathan** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 2:05 pm

It did take them a while.

owned wrote:Please don't turn this into a god/no god argument.

Please keep it civil, at least.

Corn1 · Post by **Corn1** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 5:41 pm

Isn't this the same thing that happened when scientist found out that the earth revolves around the sun rather than vice versa and it took the vatican just as long to agree as this?

In otherwords this isn't the first time.

Luke-Jr · Post by **Luke-Jr** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:24 am

Who cares what the frauds running the Vatican these days say? Evolutionism is still no more credible than it has ever been.

By the way, the Sun really orbits the Earth, not vice-versa.

Oh, and neither topic is really overly relevant to religion, so it's somewhat silly to expect any religious organizations to comment on the whole either way.

Phytotron · Post by **Phytotron** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:57 am

And you all thought luke only looked like a deranged troglodyte in his avatar photo. And no, he's not kidding.

sinewav · Post by **sinewav** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 5:16 pm

You know, I though about this, and even though I believe the Earth revolves around the Sun, there doesn't seem to anything wrong with having a geocentric world view - unless you're actually going to travel outside the Earth's atmosphere. And if you were going to do some space travel, I'd simply say "go with what works, until something better comes along".

wrtlprnft · Post by **wrtlprnft** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 5:24 pm

I don't see anyone prosecuting or otherwise harassing people who think the geocentric view of the world is correct (if anyone would like to believe that the earth rotates around mars or around himself, they should feel free to do so), but going after people who believe in something different than they do isn't a good (or “holy”) thing to do.

I don't see the big difference between harassing people who believe in the heliocentric system or people who have a different religion/skin color/whatever. Someone who does any of that (or supports someone who did it by denying the fact that it's wrong) is someone I don't want to have anything to do with.

Luke-Jr · Post by **Luke-Jr** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 5:24 pm

The funny thing is that they had to go back to the geocentric world view in order to get the satellites to orbit properly.

Luke-Jr · Post by **Luke-Jr** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 5:41 pm

wrtlprnft wrote:I don't see the big difference between harassing people who believe in the heliocentric system or people who have a different religion/skin color/whatever. Someone who does any of that (or supports someone who did it by denying the fact that it's wrong) is someone I don't want to have anything to do with.

I think the only harassment here has been against the geocentric view

And just in case this was some kind of reference to the case of Galileo, it might be worth noting that Fr. Coppernicus was never bothered about his theory that the Earth orbits the Sun. The problem with Galileo was that he took it further and claimed that Holy Scripture was in error as a result. In other words, it's fine if people think the Earth orbits the Sun (it's technically relative, anyway), but it's going too far to attack Scripture over it.

Website · Post by **Z-Man** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 6:33 pm

Luke-Jr wrote:The funny thing is that they had to go back to the geocentric world view in order to get the satellites to orbit properly.

They didn't have to, but for everything near the earth at all times, an earth centric coordinate system where you treat outside forces from the Moon and the Sun and the other planets if you're feeling fancy and especially the non-spherical shape of Earth (including mountain ranges and influences from oceans) as perturbations simply is the easier system to calculate in. If you leave Earth orbit, that changes, so don't confuse "being a good coordinate system for this problem" with "being the one true coordinate system".What is being bashed nowadays is the notion that ANY reference frame is special

And yes, Galileo openly doubled the Scripture, but that was not about geo- vs. heliocentrism, and not the reason for his... trouble with the church. His view was that heliocentrism does not contradict the Scripture.

wrtlprnft · Post by **wrtlprnft** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 6:39 pm

I don't see any harrassment against the geocentric view in this thread (maybe Phytotron's post, but I wouldn't take that too seriously in any case).

I think Galileo was smart enough not to run around the street exclaiming that the Bible was rubbish. He was just too publically visible and raised the open question, “if the earth really revolves around the sun (which from my standpoint is very likely), how does that fit with the bible?”, and the church rightly thought that this might be bad for their status and power.

I'm pretty sure Galileo wouldn't have denied a plausible explanation for both (IIRC he came up with one as well), but what the church did (if their actions were god-directed in any way at all, which I doubt, whether what happened >2000 years ago was genuine or not) definitely suggests the covering-up of some mistake they made.

I for myself am pretty convinced the heliocentric view is correct (well, not that the earth revolves around the sun, they rather rotate around some common point in between, albeit quite close to the sun's core). We have successfully launched probes to mars and venus and even some other planets (the outermost being almost by accident), and all calculations based on this view have been correct. From a geocentric standpoint mars and friends would have some very interesting trajectories.

sinewav is correct, though. As long as noone forcefully wants me to believe in the geocentric system or that the earth is a cucumber I don't care.

Luke-Jr · Post by **Luke-Jr** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 7:23 pm

The most common geocentric view deals with the relationship of the Earth and the Sun, not other planets. Other planets obviously orbit the Sun.

Your_mom · Post by **Your_mom** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 8:35 pm

http://www.qwantz.com/archive/001394.html

wrtlprnft · Post by **wrtlprnft** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:35 pm

Luke-Jr wrote:The most common geocentric view deals with the relationship of the Earth and the Sun, not other planets. Other planets obviously orbit the Sun.

As far as I remember the view that Kopernikus was trying to disprove dealed with a model of the universe that tried to explain the movements of all heavenly bodies visible to the human eye with concentric spheres or platonic solids or something.

If all the other stuff revolves around the sun you can hardly call the earth the center of the universe, can you? So if you define the geocentric model as the sun revolving around the earth and all the rest behaving like heliocentric people believe I don't see the big difference between our opinions.

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