Fraudulent Shrunkland "clone"

[sinewav]

Not all logic can and should be applied to every situation...You're operating on fallacy if you believe that.

I think you mean rationalization, not logic. And I couldn't find the fallacy, can you point it out to me?

[~z~]

Z, if someone imposters you or your work, he also doesn't care about damaging your reputation. it's not like you did something criminal, but it's not respectful either. imagine someone would do the same to you. you can always say you won't care, but i don't think you'd like it.

Again, I have yet to find anyone that agrees with your radical claims.

And it's not like there's no one who agrees with Phytotron. I for example didn't comment it because i thought it's self-explaining that you did something wrong, but obviously you think you're in the right position because nobody of your mates stands up and starts to protest.

I do not think I am "right". However, given the current situation, I see no other solution that will give us a place to play. As for your second point, I said specifically that I had /yet/ to find anyone. Now I have.

[LucK]

Hrm I don't get it what is the big problem? Phytotron did not create the settings and bans a lot of people that want to play their. The nyx clan made a clone so they and whoever else didn't agree with the shrunkland rules to play their. What they did was different from what Obsi did he made exact replicas but with nyx's servers you can see a huge difference. The only thing I could understand why you would be upset Phytotron is that he used your name without permission but that has been changed now. Problem solved?

[Phytotron]

This doesn't concern you, Luck. Bug off. However, to set the record straight for everyone else on a couple of your typically dishonest, unfounded assertions:

I really haven't banned many people at all. You are not "a lot of people," nor do you simply want to play "their[sic]." I'm using bans (mostly temporary suspensions) as a last resort for serious, repeat offenders. At the moment, I think the only people under bans are matthew, Luck, Mecca, Taz, and nyx. Not exactly fine, upstanding individuals of good reputation and character, innocent victims who've had their god-given human and civil rights trampled. Not even Liz has been banned (yet)!

And, point of fact, I did create many of the settings.

Oscilloscope, the person that the credit should go to for making that server what it became. He tweaked and refined the settings and made a really fun server in the end.
...
I want to also mention that Phytotron worked hard to perfect the Shrunkland settings after I got that server running. Thanks Phytotron!

Not to mention what I further changed with this latest incarnation.

[compguygene]

Just to make this clear. I did not give out the settings to shrunkland. I do not consider them mine to give. All I stated is as Z-man did, and did in the past. Clones are allowed. It is by no means an exact copy. All I said is that they can do so. I was asked if I would provide the settings, I did not.
Personally, when I have wanted to know how a certain server accomplishes things, I have taken the time to punch commands into the console to discover them. Anyone can do that.

[Z-Man]

Gee, let's think of how we could extend Z-Man's logic about this "solution" to the social and political spheres.

Yes, but this is a specific solution for this game.

Fixed a bit (don't want to generalize) and QFT. Obviously, in the real world, if I literally call a product of mine "iPad Clone", I'd get into trouble, and rightfully so; I'd be trying to capitalize on a brand someone else established, hurting the brand and the profits of Apple at the same time. Here, things are different. The only thing that is hurt is Phytotron's pride and his very own sense of justice. You have no profit from running a server. Running a server should always be considered a service to the community. Furthermore, it is for the benefit of the community if players can know what to expect from a server before they enter it. Therefore, the benefit of letting people know the server is a Shrunkland clone by naming it accordingly outweighs the real, tangible damage from the 'trademark and copyright infringement' (and yes, I acknowledge there is some, the uniqueness value of the server settings is diminished by clones, for example.)

So yes, Phytotron: I expect you to suck it up. You have no moral high ground to claim. You demand civilized behavior in others, yet you yourself can't make a post without throwing insults multiple ways if things are not going the way you want them. Just because you were extra decent taking over the server settings legacy doesn't mean everybody else has. In fact, it's the other way around: this is an open source game, and the default license for server settings should be equally friendly to copying and cloning.

And just to reiterate and sum it up, here's what I believe are fundamental rights:
1. Players have the right to make an informed decision on which server, under which settings and which moderation policies they want to play.
2. Anyone has the right to put up a server with settings and policies of their choosing, as long as they respect 1. and common decency(*).
You know I'll always fight for Right 2, always have and always will. Rule 1 is somewhat new in formulation; that's because issues with Right 2 rarely come up and I didn't have to think about it properly until now.

(*) We don't really want a server called "f***tastic pr0n parade" with description "get it here!" and dong-shaped arena, for example. We didn't have any cases of that yet, luckily. I suspect it will change if we allow the server to tell the client where to download the graphics from, though.

[fosho]

I would like to apologize for the "owned by Phytotron." thing, that was me. i didn't mean it the way you guys took it. I just meant it as the server "Shrunkland" is owned by Phytotron but we are just hosting one. But it is changed now.

[Phytotron]

That's a lot of bull, Z-Man. This has nothing whatsoever to do with my pride. And the remark about me slinging insults is an exaggeration, at best. Considering the kind of stuff you let others get away with, even condone—get real. (Or are those insults as well? )

And you still don't get it. This is did not stem from just a few kids misbehaving or cussing or something, as you seem to think it does (this is not comparable to the Ww/Obsi thing, and in more ways than this)—although their overall misbehaviour and defiance in abiding by the same, simple guidelines as everyone else, is a secondary part of it, along with Z's exceptionalist belief that they're not in any way obligated to follow anyone's rules but their own, while insisting we follow theirs (and you insinuate that I'm a hypocrite ).

It's primarily about the fact that the clan, with Z's direction, was attempting to move in and co-opt the server as their own, like settlers; that I should just hand it over to them, and the belief they had a right to do so. I wasn't speaking figuratively when I said that. And that sort of belief and action is clearly absurd. (I would attempt an analogy here, but whatever I come up with I'm sure you'll say you'd support that. And considering you took "social and political realm" to mean "iPhone," I don't know what sort of analogies to relate to you.)

Then coming to the cloning aspect, I never did state, argue, or request, "Z-Man, clones aren't allowed! This should be taken down!" Nor did I even insinuate it. In fact, I stated completely the opposite; the same damn thing you've said. "Obviously, there's no copyrighting of server configs in Arma, and Armagetron's quasi-anarchic structure doesn't prohibit [cloning]." Additionally, "I don't want anyone to pull any sort of retributive actions against them," which would include forcibly taking it down.

However, I did see a need to make a post informing the general community about the situation. Otherwise, you know that eventually some jackass (uh oh, insult!) would have made some post to the effect of, "hai guyz, nyx made a Shrunkland clone bcuz Phytotron hates clans and banned them all 4 no reason!!! LOL!!! F@G!" Plus, I would have to be fielding questions in-game about, "hey, what's with this other Shrunkland?" So I made that straight-forward notice about the situation so that the community would be aware that it was a knock-off, that I didn't approve it, nor do I have any involvement in it. Everything in there is factual and honest, and really didn't need any followup.

Moreover, I still stand by my personal view (shared by others, as we've seen) that what they've done, and especially the way they've done it, is unethical, regardless of your particular "open-source inspired" opinion on it. Just because something is allowed, legal, or considered a "right" (as you use the term) does not mean that it is necessarily moral and ethical. That should be an easy and obvious concept to grasp. There are plenty of things people have the "right" to do that aren't right in the moral/ethical sense. And I simply stated my view on that, and encouraged people to boycott it if they agreed.

I figured the distinctions made within the last three paragraphs were self-evident in the original post, but I guess not. Once more:

So, I don't know what's with you giving me this condescending lecture, particularly when, by your own standards, this matter doesn't even involve you.

Running a server should always be considered a service to the community.

That's why Gene put it up, and is indeed the way I view the server. That's exactly why it can't be allowed to become some random clan's unofficial clan server. (Which, by the way, was attempted at least once years ago by that—was it Ninja? Dylan and them—clan, and some other. Dr. Joe Tron shut that right down.)

Furthermore, it is for the benefit of the community if players can know what to expect from a server before they enter it.

(I realise the following wasn't specifically what you were referring to by the comment, but wanted to reiterate this nonetheless, based on your own stated principle.)
Which is precisely why I have an M.O.D. that lays out those guidelines. I've intended to write up an elucidation of them, but in the meantime I have always done so in the server before taking any action. I did just that exhaustively over the course of several weeks with Z, including my attempt at the end to first prevent a suspension, and even subsequently negotiate the suspension down. (Again, not at all comparable to the Ww/Obsi thing.)

[A_Nub]

You guys do realize this is Armagetron, and has a tiny user base and recognition in the gaming world, no need to get worked up over any of this. Nothing inherently wrong ever went down. This flame war consists of people arguing about their own opinions, and an opinion is not fact, so one is no more right than another. I think everyone one should just drop it and move on.

[Z-Man]

You guys do realize this is Armagetron, and has a tiny user base and recognition in the gaming world, no need to get worked up over any of this. Nothing inherently wrong ever went down. This flame war consists of people arguing about their own opinions, and an opinion is not fact, so one is no more right than another. I think everyone one should just drop it and move on.

Splendid idea.

I figured the distinctions made within the last three paragraphs were self-evident in the original post, but I guess not.

Indeed, it was not. There never was a question that your bans were legit and justified; if someone were to take over a server I run for activities I consider disturbing the regular intended play on it, I'd ban them too. If I gave the impression I'd disagree with you there (seems to be, since your last post mostly is about their behavior on your server), that was wrong.

And yes, you also have the right to inform people about your non-involvement with the clone. It could have been more polite (really, read the bits you didn't quote again in your last post and tell me they don't sound insulting or conflict seeking), of course.

So, I don't know what's with you giving me this condescending lecture, particularly when, by your own standards, this matter doesn't even involve you.

Because this here gave the impression you'd need a little elaboration (and I certainly didn't mean to be condescending):

Gee, let's think of how we could extend Z-Man's logic about this "solution" to the social and political spheres.

Still a mystery as to what you mean by it if not the cloning. We can't translate it to political spheres, really; if people are not happy with the way their country is run, they can't just spawn a new copy of it out of the ocean and move there.

And yes, of course I am aware of the difference between Rights, Laws, Ethics and all that. I would not formulate rules if I'd consider them unethical. And yes, I also consider the creation of a suitably clone ethically right if the top priority goal is to improve the server landscape for the players. Sure, it would be polite to ask for permission first and recommended procedure to avoid potential conflicts and just generally be nice, but in this case, there already was a conflict in full effect. With the very limited information I have, not asking for permission is a very understandable act. And claiming it was owned by you just an unfortunate formulation error.

[fosho]

Phytotron keeps saying we are "misbehaving" and "trying to take over the sever". um idk how he thought of these foolish ideas but not one person in nyx was trying to take over the server at all. we just came to play in there. I dont see any crime in there. And we have never ever went against any of the rules.. just cuz 1 person from nyx was trying to teach someone timing and turning who isnt in nyx in ur server does not mean we are taking over ur server or trying to run in and break rules. he was simply helping out a fellow tronner..

but anyway i agree with anub, lets just move on cuz this has gone on way to long.

[Z-Man]

Well, you don't have the server logs and you haven't been there all of the time. What you state as the only things happening there are just the only things to your knowledge.

[Phytotron]

Just shows how dense some of you guys are that you still think it was based on a single incident. And how dishonest you are in your denial and repainting of the overall picture. And that you didn't even fully read and/or comprehend the explanation I gave you. (Although, granted, you appear to have some literacy difficulty. How you're going away to college this fall is beyond me.)

[~z~]

Just shows how dense some of you guys are that you still think it was based on a single incident. And how dishonest you are in your denial and repainting of the overall picture. And that you didn't even fully read and/or comprehend the explanation I gave you. (Although, granted, you appear to have some literacy difficulty. How you're going away to college this fall is beyond me.)

Now you're just trolling. Please close this thread.

[Phytotron]

I'm not "trolling." I'm responding to the "flaming and trolling" and misinformation spewed from you and your snot-nosed little klan kids.

Moderators here don't lock by request, and this isn't your forum. If you and your sycophants sincerely want to drop something, then it's up to you to drop it—particularly considering you're the source of it.