Ranking/Seed System for future ladles

[noob_saibot]

I just posted under Ladle 21 about this, but I figured it deserves a topic to be discussed (if not you can just throw this out ). I want to purpose the idea of having SOME sort of ranking/seeding system for the ladle. For those teams who consistently perform well each ladle, it would only be fair. For example, if Plus were to draw Arrow first round ladle 22, I don't think it is fair to either team, since they just met in the previous finals.

I am not suggesting that the winner of the previous ladle be seeded 1, and the runner-up 2, although that would be a start. But I think most people are aware of the good fortress teams, and it would be nice to see some sort of system, which can be updated once a month or so, after Ladle.

Just an eye-dear,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[owned]

read the 5th point:

http://forums3.armagetronad.net/viewtop ... 60&t=19209

[compguygene]

Well, we may have voted on this for the next couple of ladles. But, in recent history, we have not had a good discussion of a seeding system. I doubt if we ever will vote in favor of a system of seeding if we never come to some agreement as to what would be said system. I think that noobsaibot has brought up a valid point of discussion, and we should at least figure out a potential seeding system. If we find that we like the idea that is developing, we can always call a vote and implement it for Ladle 22, or not! But there is no good reason to shut down the discussion!

[ender]

Well since players and teams are always changing... If each individual player had a rank then you could average the ranks of a team together and seed the ladle that way. But we would then need to figure a way to rank each player. Maybe a pre ladle sumo tourney to decide ranks? Just an idea...

[þsy]

i think its a good idea, clans at least should be seeded as it will be the same 10 or so players rotating each month. teams such as plus and manic tentacles is more of an issue as players can change from ladle to ladle. on top of that, some players in teams like plus are already in clans and may switch between from different ladles (for example, we considered forming a joint team for the ladle so that some of our players not in the chosen 6 could play, sending them to either join plus, or form a clan coalition team i.e. 3 CT + 3 Arrow)

these are just a few of the obstacles we'd have to get round. i dont think individual seeding is the answer though, it'd be too difficult and it isnt an individual competition, its a team competition. that would work better in monthly TST's, for example

[compguygene]

Well, perhaps we could just have simply seeding based on teams. Although individual players move from one team to the other...over time, that would probably stabilize more with seeding. For instance, let's say that JoeIsAwsome likes to play for KOD. KOD is seeded, for the sake of argument is seeded 3rd for Ladle 25. JoeIsAwesome has been asked to play for ManicTentacles in Ladle 25, which is seeded 6th. JoeIsAwesome may be more reluctant to go from playing on a team seeded 3rd to a team seeded 6th. I have seen in other sports that a move to seeded teams has stabilized players moving from team to team. People begin to take more pride in building something for the future, as I am trying to do with Ww! Also, it gives a lot more motivation to a team that is on the cusp of great things to be seeded for the first time, and to work their way up the seeding!
I very firmly believe that the time is right to ratchet up the level of competition that seeding would provide. Also, as more American Clans are beginning to participate in Fortress Play, as I have been really pushing them to do so. It will help to motivate them, just to get seeded and play against seeded teams!

[noob_saibot]

Well since players and teams are always changing... If each individual player had a rank then you could average the ranks of a team together and seed the ladle that way. But we would then need to figure a way to rank each player. Maybe a pre ladle sumo tourney to decide ranks? Just an idea...

I don't necessarily think it has to be an "individual" rank; since teams seem to be establishing themselves, many with more then 6-8 players, it would be a good idea to have the "general" teams ranked/seeded. For example, Plus has more then an 8 player squad, and each ladle the team is tweaked a bit. However, as a team, Plus has been in the finals of the last 3 ladles. CT has won 2 of the last 3, TR has consistently performed, etc. I am sure that these teams have not used the same players every ladle, but the team in general performs. That should count for something.

i think its a good idea, clans at least should be seeded as it will be the same 10 or so players rotating each month. teams such as plus and manic tentacles is more of an issue as players can change from ladle to ladle. on top of that, some players in teams like plus are already in clans and may switch between from different ladles (for example, we considered forming a joint team for the ladle so that some of our players not in the chosen 6 could play, sending them to either join plus, or form a clan coalition team i.e. 3 CT + 3 Arrow)

I can only speak for Plus here, but our squad is basically like the standard fortress clan, in that we have a group of 8-10 players who rotate each ladle. KoD (I think) would be another good example. They are fortress teams, period. I am not sure how it would work by having players from different teams forming one (talking about your 3 CT + 3 Arrow example) because say next ladle they break up. Sure there is no problem in them forming a team for that particular ladle, but as far as being considered for the ranking system, I don't think that particular "temporary" team should earn a rank. After all, CT and Arrow teams would already be ranked, and if they are part of that team, then they are included in the rankings.

very firmly believe that the time is right to ratchet up the level of competition that seeding would provide. Also, as more American Clans are beginning to participate in Fortress Play, as I have been really pushing them to do so. It will help to motivate them, just to get seeded and play against seeded teams!

Sure, it can motivate people to want to compete. Again, it doesn't necessarily have to be designed to motivate American's in particular, but I understand what you are saying.

By having an organized ranking system, it adds more competition to these tournaments. It also makes the draw sheets fair. I mentioned before, there is absolutely NO REASON that 2 teams who have met in the finals of the most recent ladle, should have to worry about playing eachother again FIRST ROUND of the next ladle. It isn't fair. It defeats the whole purpose of competing, in my mind. If Roger Federer played Rafael Nadal first round of all the Grand Slams, it is not fair to the people who pay to see them, and it certainly isn't fair to them. If the Lakers had to play the Cavaliers first round of NBA playoffs, how fair is that? It can go on and on, but I think it is for the benefit of the players, teams, and ladle as a whole, to incorporate some sort of system.

[owned]

The way I see it, it can go two ways. 8 seeded or 4 seeded teams. Any more would be too complicated, and any less would be too useless to make much of a difference.

The former would work like this: Each seeded team would go into a different eighth with the four top teams all in four different quarters and the top two in different halves. A third place match could be played to differentiate the 3rd and the 4th teams.
Another way would be to seed the top 8 teams in their groups- world cup style.
The latter would work like this: Each seeded team would go into a different fourth with the top two going into different halves. Once again, third place matches can be used to differentiate 3rd and 4th so 1 and 4 will be in the same half as with 2 and 3.

Anyways, here's how I would sort out difficulties:
1. If a new team is created from parts of another team (such as the 3 arrow and 3 ct idea) while the other team still exists, then they are NOT seeded.
2. If a new team is created from parts of an old team that does not exist anymore (such as BBDS went to KOD,) then the new team gets the old team's seed as long as the majority of the players on their roster were on the old team. (If there is no majority, then no seed.)
3. If two teams merge into one (say for example we have two squads and the next ladle we only have one,) then the seed of the upper team is taken.
4. A team must have at least 4 players from its old roster on its new one to maintain it's seed.
5. If a seeded team either does not come back or looses its seed, then the seeded teams will move up and random teams will fill the empty spaces.




A random suggestion: Teams should sign up as either European or American so the server choices are made easier.

[noob_saibot]

I like that idea Won,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,8 is a good number to start with. I am not sure how the initial ranking system will be based. What I mean is how do we determine right now who 1-8 is? Based on last ladle? Previous 2? 3? etc.

Also where would/could this rankings be posted?

[owned]

(This is all assuming the majority agrees with seeding.)


@noob I would recommend starting fresh with this ladle, considering no one knew last ladle that it would affect this one. Then we would start seeding.

About where:
I was hoping that tank makes a new subforum for the Ladle/Bowl. There we could list rules, debates, links, and everything in general with the competition.

[noob_saibot]

sounds good to me...

[sinewav]

I really like where this conversation is going. We now have a pretty significant amount of regular teams playing in the Ladle, so the idea of seeding is much more viable. As long as we can solve the problem of "missing seeds" (teams that disappear from one Ladle to the next), we should look into voting this into effect next time it comes up. I think 4 seeds would probably be best with this size competition.

[compguygene]

I really agree with sine.wav. I think at the current level of regular participation 4 seeded teams would probably be a very good idea. If you look at the challenge boards for the last few ladles, things have been kindof screwy with the random seeding...often teams having been having a semi-final fight in the first round! I probably shouldn't be arguing for this, since Ww has benefited from random seeding. However, it seems that the time is right. I would much rather my Ww team face the best of teams in the first round and work to get past them, than advance just to get knocked down!

[noob_saibot]

Beating a dead giraffe...perhaps if some sort of ranking system were implemented, and ladles had 4 or 6 seeds, organization would become less "taxing". Really. By having 4 or 6 seeded teams the rest of the bracket could be selected randomly, but at least those "top" teams would be cemented in corners of the bracket. We have enough teams playing consistently, that not having a ranking/seeding system is just stupid. Another point: why should the current top 2 fortress teams have to worry about playing each other in the first round on any ladle...doesn't make much sense to me....

[orion]

Cool idea nick!
i will take this post for ask some.. DLH when will be ready ladles 36 stats?