WST: A request for a better map

[PokeMaster]

WSTs are great and all, but I feel that they have been kind of ruined by the map. Here's my list of problems with it:

1. Too Big
I did some research, and found out the amount of space (area) per player in each of the following servers.
Fortress - 419 m²/player with 2 players in a zone through 1257 m²/player with 6 in a zone
ID Sumo - 628 m²/player with 8 players in a zone through 1257 m²/player with 4 in a zone
TST - 982 m²/player with 8 players
WST - 1676 m²/player with 6 players
That's just far too much space per player, especially considering the fact that most people don't train in WST servers, and aren't used to managing that much space. Furthermore, starting at this size means that the zone shrink is even faster, and that most of the action takes place in the middle of the round. It's obvious that whenever teams survive until the end of the round, the zone is shrinking too fast to allow for an type of good fight. It just becomes about holding onto the small bit of space you have (that's quickly decaying) instead of actually fighting your enemy.

2. Spawn points create the same start every time
Every team grinds to the center from far away. The two sides split, and grab their respective corner spaces, and the two centers will fight for the strip of space in the middle, with 3rd and 4th players occasionally stepping in to help. There's not a whole range for variety with these spawnpoints; the starts of rounds are practically always the same. In other sumo servers though, you see a lot more variety right off the bat. Yes, there are usually 3 or more teams which does change things a lot, but it also has a lot to do with the spawnpoints. I'm a much bigger fan of the sideways entrances that are used in regular sumo, ID sumo, TSTs, and 1v1s, since they don't already point you right at the middle, and you can make a choice of when to turn to face your enemy.

3. Too much excess space surrounding the zone
This is a pretty simple one. There's just all this deadspace surrounding the zone, which is just unnecessary. It's not a big deal, but when a player has to go afk, for whatever reasons, they usually come back and their cycle is miles away from the action, and usually they can't make it back in time by the end of the round.


My point is, the WSTs are great, but I feel like the variety of play is really stifled by the map. The best solution (just my opinion) would just be a 1v1map with 3 players per team (and a larger size_factor). Really though, at this point, we should all be open to experimentation.

[dariv]

Can't hurt to try it! Best way to get the ball rolling would be to make the config on an open server, and see what people think.


I like the large zones though, it's nice to have that variety to give more time for an attacker to attack before they run out of zone. Just because it's different, doesn't make it wrong.

[Titanoboa]

Here's my effort on experimenting.
The thought just struck me while reading poke's post and I quickly made a sketch of it in paint. I'm not sure what to think of it yet.
If anyone believes in the idea, I'll turn it into code at request.

wstideasketchthing.JPG (7.41 KiB) Viewed 3541 times

Your team will be fighting from 3 separate places to begin with, so the first 10 seconds will determine who gets what space, and there'll be countless different ways to start a round.
Seeing as you can't predict the "grind", the team needs to be flexible and the players need to have all-round skills to make a good team. This can be both good and bad, but in contrast to the characteristics of a typical WST round, I think it's good.

[dariv]

If you can make a server do that I'll happily try to organise a few people for a war to test it!

[Titanoboa]

Ok I'll start tomorrow then . I hope I have time. Easter's gonna be busy

[sinewav]

WSTs are great and all, but I feel that they have been kind of ruined by the map. Here's my list of problems with it: Too Big, Too much excess space surrounding the zone...

These are both the same problem. I looked at the WST.cfg and found you guys are using a laughable SIZE_FACTOR 2. The map wasn't intended to be that big - and I should know, because I made it. Simply adjusting the size factor to a lower value changes that. I guess at one point people thought the zone and arena were too small?

The extra space around the zone was intended to stop afk/lagged teammates from ruining your zone - they can simply drive off into the distance without harm. Yes they get too far away now because, well, size_factor again.

The third issue you have about spawn points is a good one. Before this was called "WST" it was "Ladle + TST." It was a cross between Fort and Sumo (check that thread for some early ideas and how this was developed). Using the 1v1 sumo map like you suggested should be enough of a fix with minimal work and experimentation, which is key to success in situations like this.

Titanoboa, I'm not sure how much map experience you have but remember your goal can be reached with 2 spawn points (one per team) and adjusting SPAWN_WINGMEN_SIDE and SPAWN_WIMGMEN_BACK (to a negative number).

[INW]

The excess space is an easy fix. I can just look at the xml and edit it a tad.

As for the same start: hmm, well I would have to agree with you on that one.

What you are trying to say is that the WST is starting to get same old same old and you would like to change the map in hoping for some variety in game play?

We can always give it a shot. Someone will need to make a map and test it on a server and give feedback.

[syllabear]

so you want to make it different by making it similar to every other game type?

Whats wrong with having this unique game mode?

[PokeMaster]

I already put a server called _~Rogue Tronners Experimental WST~_ that people can try out. It is the map taken from Cody's 1v1 sumo tourneys with size_factor 2 and 3 players per team. Nothing else changed. People can go ahead and try it out.

[PokeMaster]

so you want to make it different by making it similar to every other game type?

Whats wrong with having this unique game mode?

Because people don't play WSTs regularly except around tournament time, so time spent in other more popular sumo servers won't necessarily prepare them well for this. I will say though, that it's pretty obvious that the better sumo/fort players have done historically better than others in the WSTs.

[LucK]

I will check out the server and tell my input.

[INW]

I am will try this out with luck soon.

btw, you forgot to capitalize the "t" in WST in the server name

[LucK]

I don't really like the current map poke. I am very interested in looking at how Titan's map works.

[dariv]

so you want to make it different by making it similar to every other game type?

Whats wrong with having this unique game mode?

It doesn't make sense to me to have your main sumo tournament in a format that is totally different to any sumo server that people play on.

A 3v3 sumo game will still be unique, wherever the spawn points are.

[Slov]

I agree with Poke and love Titan's scetch Let's try it